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 Post subject: Bestow + Tawnos's Coffin / Oubliette
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-17 2:07 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-19 1:30 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I'm building a deck with several bestow creatures, and was considering using Tawnos's Coffin as a removal/protection option.

Now, the issue comes in as to what happens if I have a base creature with some bestow creatures attached to it, and put that creature into the Coffin. When I untap/lose the Coffin, what happens to the bestow aura/creatures?

The possibilities are:

1) The aura/creatures enter the battlefield attached to the base creature, and since they're attached they're auras as usual.

2) The aura/creatures enter the battlefield attached to the base creature, but since they weren't cast with the bestow ability they're creatures, and as such immediately detach.

3) The aura/creatures are no longer auras, so they cannot attach to the base creature, and as such never return from exile.

I can see rules arguments for all three positions, but am pretty sure #1 is unlikely to be correct.

Can someone with a deeper understanding of the rules explain the interaction on this one?

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 Post subject: Re: Bestow + Tawnos's Coffin / Oubliette
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-17 5:08 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
#3 if i am interpreting the rules correctly. I am not guru but they seem clear enough to make a determination.

(a) Gatherer ruling on Coffin:
9/16/2007: If the exiled card is returned to the battlefield and, for some reason, it now can't be enchanted by an Aura that was also exiled by Tawnos's Coffin, that Aura will remain exiled.

I don't think it can be taken to mean "Since it's not an aura anymore, it can come back anyway". I take "Aura" in this ruling to mean "card", so even if it stops being an aura while exiled it still 'only comes back if it can enchant the previously exiled permanent'.

Also, (a) Bestow ruling:

9/15/2013: If a permanent with bestow enters the battlefield by any method other than being cast, it will be an enchantment creature. You can't choose to pay the bestow cost and have it become an Aura.

Means that being exiled and returned causes it to lose it's status.

So, since the bestows are no longer auras/can come back as auras, and therefore can't enchant the returned permanent, i think it stands to reason that they remain exiled.


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 Post subject: Re: Bestow + Tawnos's Coffin / Oubliette
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-17 5:40 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Sovarius wrote:
#3 if i am interpreting the rules correctly. I am not guru but they seem clear enough to make a determination.

Yup, your line of reasoning is the same as mine. I'm about 95% certain that's the case, but have about 5% uncertainty regarding #2.

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 Post subject: Re: Bestow + Tawnos's Coffin / Oubliette
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-17 6:00 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
They return as creatures, unattached to the original.

Source: Gatherer ruling on Flickerform:
Quote:
2/1/2014 : If the enchanted creature was enchanted by any Auras with bestow or any Licids, those cards will return to the battlefield unattached as creatures.

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 Post subject: Re: Bestow + Tawnos's Coffin / Oubliette
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-18 12:31 am 
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Viperion: Yeah -- but Tawnos's Coffin has a bunch of extra wording to make it work differently than simply slowly flickering the creature. It might work differently.


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 Post subject: Re: Bestow + Tawnos's Coffin / Oubliette
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-18 4:54 am 
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Joined: 2009-Jun-02 3:54 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Germany, near Berlin
Coffin Oracle Wording (partly):
"Exile target creature [...]. When Tawnos's Coffin leaves the battlefield or becomes untapped, return that exiled card to the battlefield under its owner's control [...]. If you do, return the other exiled cards to the battlefield under their owner's control attached to that permanent.

[...] is the irrelevant stuff about counters.

The second sentence creates a normal triggered ability, that returns the exiled card. It works just like an Oblivion Ring.

Only the last sentence governs how Auras are treated. A resolving* spell or ability always does as much as possible of its rules text and ignores all impossible instructions.
As much as possible here means returning the Bestow creatures, ignoring the impossible "attached to that permanent".


* Of course, the ability must be able to resolve in the first place. All targets being illegal or an "intervening if clause" might counter it before. That is a different story and not relevant to this case.

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 Post subject: Re: Bestow + Tawnos's Coffin / Oubliette
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-18 5:32 am 

Joined: 2012-Oct-24 8:05 pm
Age: Drake
Quote:
303.4h. If an effect attempts to put a permanent that isn't an Aura, Equipment, or Fortification onto the battlefield attached to an object or player, it enters the battlefield unattached.


The gatherer ruling is because of this rule, which doesn't apply to bestow creatures:
Quote:
303.4i. If an effect attempts to put an Aura onto the battlefield enchanting an object or player it can't legally enchant, the Aura remains in its current zone.


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 Post subject: Re: Bestow + Tawnos's Coffin / Oubliette
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-18 9:46 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
NMS wrote:
The gatherer ruling is because of this rule, which doesn't apply to bestow creatures:
Quote:
303.4i. If an effect attempts to put an Aura onto the battlefield enchanting an object or player it can't legally enchant, the Aura remains in its current zone.

The gatherer ruling absolutely applies to Bestow creatures, in fact it specifically mentions them. Read my post again. And that's what I get for reading posts before the morning coffee. You were agreeing with me, my apologies :oops:

Carthian; the extra stuff is to do with the counters; the Aura-returning part of the text is the same as Flickerform.

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Last edited by Viperion on 2018-Aug-18 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Bestow + Tawnos's Coffin / Oubliette
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-18 10:21 am 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-19 1:30 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
OK, so it's looking like the consensus is that it's option #2 that is correct, due to its parallels with Flickerform and rule 303.4h.

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 Post subject: Re: Bestow + Tawnos's Coffin / Oubliette
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-19 11:29 am 

Joined: 2012-Oct-24 8:05 pm
Age: Drake
Viperion wrote:
NMS wrote:
The gatherer ruling is because of this rule, which doesn't apply to bestow creatures:
Quote:
303.4i. If an effect attempts to put an Aura onto the battlefield enchanting an object or player it can't legally enchant, the Aura remains in its current zone.

The gatherer ruling absolutely applies to Bestow creatures, in fact it specifically mentions them. Read my post again. And that's what I get for reading posts before the morning coffee. You were agreeing with me, my apologies :oops:

No worries. I could've been more clear. I was referring to the first ruling mentioned by Sovarius about the Coffin, not the one about Flickerform. I think we're all in agreement now that regular auras remain in exile if they can't be reattached, but bestow creatures always come back unattached as creatures.


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 Post subject: Re: Bestow + Tawnos's Coffin / Oubliette
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-20 8:17 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Willbender wrote:
OK, so it's looking like the consensus is that it's option #2 that is correct, due to its parallels with Flickerform and rule 303.4h.

I would think so if Flickerform is worded that way.


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 Post subject: Re: Bestow + Tawnos's Coffin / Oubliette
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-22 11:10 pm 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
I think this is a super cool interaction, the more I mull it over- but that makes me wonder if building around this awesome pet card should also include a similar interaction with manifest oriented cards like Lightform and Cloudform. Would be really uncomfortable playing the Coffin without tools like Twitch, Twiddle, and Clock of Omens though- since it seems like the sort of value play where someone at the table who's overvaluing the effect could put you out several cards on.

Is it your intent to speed up this process for cantrip-like auras, to protect vulnerable dudes from Terrors for part of a turn cycle, or just every angle of the pet card you can find?

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 Post subject: Re: Bestow + Tawnos's Coffin / Oubliette
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-23 1:01 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-19 1:30 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Mr Degradation wrote:
Is it your intent to speed up this process for cantrip-like auras, to protect vulnerable dudes from Terrors for part of a turn cycle, or just every angle of the pet card you can find?

Well, right now it's in my Thrun, the Last Troll deck. I originally put it in as another option to protect Thrun from tuck (Terminus was heavily-played here for a while), but left it in as it's still a decent versatile protection/removal option. I may be cutting it for some cards from the new Commander decks, and have been thinking of an aura-based build around Uril, the Miststalker or Krond the Dawn-Clad, and need options to make kill/bounce/exile not 2+ for one me. This card fits the bill, as well as bestow creatures, hence this thread to verify how they interact.

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