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 Post subject: Re: Many old cards are spiking in price
AgePosted: 2018-Jun-21 8:52 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Something is really fishy here. Just looked it up on cardkingdom and tcgplayer, where it's going for $10 and $15 respectively.

Even that is ridiculous.


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 Post subject: Re: Many old cards are spiking in price
AgePosted: 2018-Jun-21 9:27 am 
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Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
With how abysmal wotc has been at putting reprints out, reserve list cards aren't going to be the only expensive cards before long. Hell something as mundane as Chromatic Lantern goes for 15-20 bucks, that's ridiculous. You want really bad? Oracle of Mul Daya went from four bucks to 30-40$ for a basic ramp dude, jesus. Bloomtender and Mana Reflection are also sitting in the same price range, gross. Beyond that there are a million other edh staples not on the reserve list in price ranges between 15 and 100 dollars all in dire need of reprinting, so the barrier to entry to the format isn't exactly getting lower.

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

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 Post subject: Re: Many old cards are spiking in price
AgePosted: 2018-Jun-21 9:46 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
You could almost say it's potentially getting higher.


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 Post subject: Re: Many old cards are spiking in price
AgePosted: 2018-Jun-22 3:42 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Gath Immortal wrote:
With how abysmal wotc has been at putting reprints out, reserve list cards aren't going to be the only expensive cards before long. Hell something as mundane as Chromatic Lantern goes for 15-20 bucks, that's ridiculous. You want really bad? Oracle of Mul Daya went from four bucks to 30-40$ for a basic ramp dude, jesus. Bloomtender and Mana Reflection are also sitting in the same price range, gross. Beyond that there are a million other edh staples not on the reserve list in price ranges between 15 and 100 dollars all in dire need of reprinting, so the barrier to entry to the format isn't exactly getting lower.

yup.

I really appreciate Wizards efforts to support commander... but reprints have not been great.

Time Stretch should not be a $10+ card.

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 Post subject: Re: Many old cards are spiking in price
AgePosted: 2018-Jun-22 8:45 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Well there goes any reasonably priced wall ...

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niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: Many old cards are spiking in price
AgePosted: 2018-Jun-22 10:05 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Isn't Oracle playable in modern though? That's not exactly screwing over commander players.

Also, I personally am confused as to why Chromatic Lantern is so damn expensive. It's really just a fancier Manalith.

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 Post subject: Re: Many old cards are spiking in price
AgePosted: 2018-Jun-25 10:54 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Gath Immortal wrote:
With how abysmal wotc has been at putting reprints out, reserve list cards aren't going to be the only expensive cards before long.


They can't print too much, that's how we got into the mess of having a reserved list in the first place.

Also stores are feeling some of the effects of having to pay for overprinted product they can't turn into a profit, which makes them not want to order more. There are delicate factors you are not considering.

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all in dire need of reprinting, so the barrier to entry to the format isn't exactly getting lower.

Idk if feeling entitled to a hobby that is happy to print free money and doing their best is really 'dire'.

If you think Oracle is a basic ramp dude then why do you care if it's $30? Move on to some other basic ramp dude.

But it would be much better with less dead cards in the rare and mythic slot when they print masters sets.

niheloim wrote:
Time Stretch should not be a $10+ card.

What does that really mean? People like it and it's old. What should it be and why should they print a $10 card when there are much more popular $20 cards that could be better for business and players? Not trying to be a shitter of a person but i never understand when someone says something like that.

Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Isn't Oracle playable in modern though? That's not exactly screwing over commander players.

No

Quote:
Also, I personally am confused as to why Chromatic Lantern is so damn expensive. It's really just a fancier Manalith.

Supply and demand?

It's way better than manalith and manalith is bad. Lantern is a sweet sweet budget option to having pricier fancy lands and probably seen as an autoinclude. It lets all your colorless lands tap for mana, and it lets your non-mana lands do the same.


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 Post subject: Re: Many old cards are spiking in price
AgePosted: 2018-Jun-26 6:11 am 
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Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
Sovarius wrote:
Gath Immortal wrote:
With how abysmal wotc has been at putting reprints out, reserve list cards aren't going to be the only expensive cards before long.


They can't print too much, that's how we got into the mess of having a reserved list in the first place.

Also stores are feeling some of the effects of having to pay for overprinted product they can't turn into a profit, which makes them not want to order more. There are delicate factors you are not considering.


Stores are feeling the effects overprinted shitty product. Iconic and Masters 25 were walking talking garbage fires and everyone knew it before they even came out. The duel decks are terrible value, hell the global series is a sad joke, each deck has 3 rares, only one of which isn't planeswalker related. They were forced to print the challenger deck series with good cards in them because no one ever bought their terrible precons / gift boxes or what have you except at a huge discount to gouge out the packs.

If they just printed one good reprint set a year where every card was at least relevant (cards with only one printing, no limited trash, no bulk rares or cards already reprinted into the ground) that would be healthy enough.

Quote:
Quote:
all in dire need of reprinting, so the barrier to entry to the format isn't exactly getting lower.

Idk if feeling entitled to a hobby that is happy to print free money and doing their best is really 'dire'.

But it would be much better with less dead cards in the rare and mythic slot when they print masters sets.


While I agree that masters sets shouldn't be 90% draft chaff and bulk rare garbage wotc is in no way "printing free money" at 10 bucks a pack. That entire series is designed to exploit the gambler's high to get people to shell out assloads of cash, it's essentially the lottery in card form.

Also, is wotc really "doing their best" when their staff care more about social justice issues than their own card game?

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

QFT


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 Post subject: Re: Many old cards are spiking in price
AgePosted: 2018-Jun-26 8:36 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
You could strip away all of the story behind the cards and the game would still play the same. Wizards addressing social justice issues in no way takes resources away from making a game that is fun to play in limited and constructed formats. Them addressing social inequality through the lore makes the game more inclusive towards everyone and brings in more players. If some people get upset because Omg they made a trans character to pander to the sjws then we are probably better off without those players.


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 Post subject: Re: Many old cards are spiking in price
AgePosted: 2018-Jun-26 8:50 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
To prove cryogen's point, I know almost nothing about the past 4-6 sets' worth of lore. I know that Emrakul showed up on Innistrad, Bolas is doing stuff, pirates, Dominaria exists again... and that's about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Many old cards are spiking in price
AgePosted: 2018-Jun-26 7:17 pm 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Gath Immortal wrote:
Also, is wotc really "doing their best" when their staff care more about social justice issues than their own card game?

Yes. That's part of them doing their best at this card game.

I note this is the second time in the space of a month you've complained about social justice stuff. For Battlebond you wrote that "all the normal people look like the sexless hipster sjws that directed the art."

Reading your words in both quotes charitably, you're upset they're creating characters you can't relate to because they're different to you, or which aren't for your enjoyment specifically. But there are other people different to you playing this game. Some are women, some black or Asian or Indian or other ethnicities, some are LGBT. Those characters you seem annoyed about weren't created for you, they were created for these other players in our community. I'm queer, and for me characters like Kynaios, Tiro, Ashiok, Alesha, and Hallar are some of my favorite parts of MtG.

This is like that thing where they often make cards that specifically target Johnny/Jenny, Timmy/Tammy, or Spike. If you weren't the person the card was made for you might not get why it's fun or any good. But that's fine, it wasn't made for you. It was made for someone else.

You also seem to think they're doing this instead of other things. But they have characters, those characters have identities and stories and art. It takes no longer to decide someone's black or a woman or trans or gay than to decide they're a white cis straight man, perhaps beyond a few seconds of the creator deciding to go with something other than their default. Stories need writing, and art needs making. They aim to cover a lot of different kinds of stories, and some of those involve LGBT people or whatnot. If you don't enjoy those stories, they weren't made for you.

A less charitable reading is you're upset they're choosing to feature characters who aren't straight cis white people and the women aren't dressed sluttily enough. I don't know what to tell you, but that doesn't sound that great.

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 Post subject: Re: Many old cards are spiking in price
AgePosted: 2018-Jun-27 6:18 am 
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Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
spacemonaut wrote:
Gath Immortal wrote:
Also, is wotc really "doing their best" when their staff care more about social justice issues than their own card game?

Yes. That's part of them doing their best at this card game.

you're upset they're creating characters you can't relate to because they're different to you, or which aren't for your enjoyment specifically. But there are other people different to you playing this game. Some are women, some black or Asian or Indian or other ethnicities, some are LGBT. Those characters you seem annoyed about weren't created for you, they were created for these other players in our community. I'm queer, and for me characters like Kynaios, Tiro, Ashiok, Alesha, and Hallar are some of my favorite parts of MtG.


Maybe I'm just too cynical then since my problem is less them trying to be inclusive and more feeling like it's only happening because someone in a position of power in the company is trying to push an agenda and maybe I'm associating that too much with what is my percieved drop in art quality (art is subjective after all) and product quality.

I think K and T have fantastic art and great abilities, ashiok strikes me as less a person and more some otherworldly being and I never would have known that about alesha had I not gone looking.

My only real bugbear in the bunch is hallar and that might only be because of the hissyfit thrown by a bunch of people over "genderless elven pronoun" and when I saw it I couldn't help but feel they sort of hamfisted that particular bit of information. If it were me I would've just had my writers do a cool story about the character being a badass and just never used male / female pronouns in it so people got the picture without feeling like it was sledgehammered in, but then the internet still exists, so maybe it would still have drawn hate.

And honestly, I think it's great that these characters exist but had you not mentioned them I probably never would of noticed because gender identity/sexuality is the last thing I give a crap about in a game about deep mechanics and cool looking art. That's why I'm a bit concerned that wotc's hard push for inclusion might end up in them neglecting or damaging the quality of the other parts of the game.

Speaking of cool looking art, this is essentially the crux of my issue with battlebond, and having thought about it I realized it actually spawned from one of the silliest and most petty things that still bugs the absolute hell out of me: The rainbow hair brigade

Impetuous Protege, Ley Weaver, Arena Rector, Brightling, Stunning Reversal

Not sure why, but I just absolutely cannot accept this in a fantasy setting and it makes me hate every piece of art like this. If you want rainbow hair feel free to make a cyberpunk set because not only would it be appropriate there to have a rainbow mohawk or bioluminescent afro but it would also be cool as hell. Guess I'm just a little too old timey but it just feels super immersion breaking in a medieval fantasy world to have people running around with hot pink hair.

Beyond that I also can't shake the feeling that half the art just looks like they drew the people and stuck them in front of a green screen / desktop wallpaper effect instead of drawing them into an actual scene. The partner cards, jubilant mascot and mindblade render are some pretty good examples of it. Then again battlebond seemed like a pretty big rush job in general so maybe thats why I'm put off by the art design as well.

and I still think will and rowan kenrith sound like characters from a badly written fanfic, plus their art is boring, card color coordinated clothing + white trim looks really lazy honestly.

Quote:
You also seem to think they're doing this instead of other things. But they have characters, those characters have identities and stories and art. It takes no longer to decide someone's black or a woman or trans or gay than to decide they're a white cis straight man, perhaps beyond a few seconds of the creator deciding to go with something other than their default. Stories need writing, and art needs making. They aim to cover a lot of different kinds of stories, and some of those involve LGBT people or whatnot. If you don't enjoy those stories, they weren't made for you.


I'm not entirely sure about that. If you look at Pir's Whim and compare it to Pir himself, it looks like he went from a white hobbit looking kid to a black kid, which ironically I think actually worked out since it's one of the better pictures in the set. I find the idea that they created a character and then apparently changed his ethnicity last minute a little weird though, it trips my cynicism sensor really hard. Did wotc ever actually give a reason for this? It could just as easily have been a miscommunication with an artist, who knows, but wotc doesn't like to talk much any more.

I also disagree a little bit on the first sentence, because if that were fully true I'd think garruk would be in M19 and not vivien reid, who I gotta say does not have very flattering art. Idk but the card color + white stripe outfit thing really puts me off just like the wonder twins, it looks artificial which is weird for a green walker and she just looks really flat and lifeless her bow seems featureless and her expression is kinda blank. Vivien of the Arkbow actually looks quite a bit better, her outfit is darker, her stern hunter tone is definable and her bow has more detail shown.

However I still think Garruk deserved to get let out of the penalty box for M19 as iconic as he is, or at least replaced by Nissa, but he got benched ever since certain people flipped their shit over Triumph of Ferocity. Which is too bad because wotc totes jace around as being the intelligent geeky representatitve of magic, whereas garruk is infinitely more representative of how people actually play magic (timmy smash!), lol.

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

QFT


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 Post subject: Re: Many old cards are spiking in price
AgePosted: 2018-Jun-27 6:37 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Gath Immortal wrote:
I'm not entirely sure about that. If you look at Pir's Whim and compare it to Pir himself, it looks like he went from a white hobbit looking kid to a black kid, which ironically I think actually worked out since it's one of the better pictures in the set. I find the idea that they created a character and then apparently changed his ethnicity last minute a little weird though, it trips my cynicism sensor really hard.

Why assume there's some plot behind this? Couldn't it just have been an oversight that made it's way through to production?


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 Post subject: Re: Many old cards are spiking in price
AgePosted: 2018-Jun-27 8:23 am 
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Carthain wrote:
Gath Immortal wrote:
I'm not entirely sure about that. If you look at Pir's Whim and compare it to Pir himself, it looks like he went from a white hobbit looking kid to a black kid, which ironically I think actually worked out since it's one of the better pictures in the set. I find the idea that they created a character and then apparently changed his ethnicity last minute a little weird though, it trips my cynicism sensor really hard.

Why assume there's some plot behind this? Couldn't it just have been an oversight that made it's way through to production?


which was effectively what I was saying in the last sentence you excluded.

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

QFT


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 Post subject: Re: Many old cards are spiking in price
AgePosted: 2018-Jun-27 10:19 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Fair. But you did feel it was worth a decent sized paragraph to complain about. If you were fine with it just being a potential mistake and nothing behind it, I don't think you would have bothered writing the part of the paragraph that I did quote.


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