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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-17 1:38 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sovarius wrote:
'We' as in you and i? I am not saying Gifts can 'seem fair, ends up wrecking games'.
Yep - looking back I'm pretty sure I just mis-read what you said :)


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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-24 11:05 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
This thread didn't turn into a dumpster fire, which is cool.

But, final bump because i am curious if the RC have any additional thoughts or responses?


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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-28 3:34 am 
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Sovarius wrote:
This thread didn't turn into a dumpster fire, which is cool.

But, final bump because i am curious if the RC have any additional thoughts or responses?


My off-the-cuff thought is that I don't see any evidence to support the format is better with Gifts in it. I accept the argument that there might be other cards the format is also better off without, but that has no bearing on the Gifts discussion. As much as possible, we evaluate cards on their own merits.

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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-30 3:15 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sheldon wrote:
Sovarius wrote:
This thread didn't turn into a dumpster fire, which is cool.

But, final bump because i am curious if the RC have any additional thoughts or responses?


My off-the-cuff thought is that I don't see any evidence to support the format is better with Gifts in it. I accept the argument that there might be other cards the format is also better off without, but that has no bearing on the Gifts discussion. As much as possible, we evaluate cards on their own merits.

Is that because you don't think the interesting uses mentioned earlier would make the format better, or because you think that the the negative uses which you saw when it was legal would still be a concern today? Or perhaps a mix?


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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-30 1:48 pm 
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A mix, because the negatives outweigh the positives. Adding tutors into the format is never going to make it better.

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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-30 2:52 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sheldon wrote:
A mix, because the negatives outweigh the positives. Adding tutors into the format is never going to make it better.
Doesn't that fly in the face of a Hulk unban? I honestly don't care about Hulk, but he does tutor them directly into play. Are we sure its not 'Blue has plenty of toys, it does not don't need more'?

I get that its opinion, and directly comparing cards always gets a thumbs down, but I just don't see it here. The format changed, and ban philosophy refined, Uber powerful items have been freed. Hopefully someday Gifts will get its new day in the sun.

Thanks for coming in and providing some details, it is appreciated.

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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-19 4:32 pm 
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I'd jam that shit into Bruna so fast


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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-06 10:41 pm 
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MRHblue wrote:
Sheldon wrote:
A mix, because the negatives outweigh the positives. Adding tutors into the format is never going to make it better.
Doesn't that fly in the face of a Hulk unban? I honestly don't care about Hulk, but he does tutor them directly into play. Are we sure its not 'Blue has plenty of toys, it does not don't need more'?

I get that its opinion, and directly comparing cards always gets a thumbs down, but I just don't see it here. The format changed, and ban philosophy refined, Uber powerful items have been freed. Hopefully someday Gifts will get its new day in the sun.

Thanks for coming in and providing some details, it is appreciated.


Sorry for the necro, but this felt like something I'd like to respond to.

The Hulk unban is very different type of discussion imo. Yes, it tutors up combo pieces- but it requires more steps than "spell resolves"- there are points to disrupt it fairly constantly, and an insane amount of tech choices to punish it.

Gifts almost always nets 4 combo pieces, and can only be interacted with effectively on the stack- for a card to outclass Intuition and Dig Through Time by such a margin leads to gamestate more anticlimactic then "Johnny popped his Hulk for the Wombo Combo"- without the necessary satisfaction of ending the game on the spot and shuffling up for the next one (even then, the defacto usage for Hulk is to toolbox in fair decks, more often than as the insta-win loop.) Gifts, by comparison doesn't just assemble the pieces for a combo deck, but it almost universally assembles a sort of softlock that other similar tools simply cannot recreate or combat reasonably- (in this sense, the Gifts ban has more in common with the Prophet of Kruphix ban than the Hulk ban in the way in which it impacts the format's philosophy of being optimized for highly social gameplay.)

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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-08 4:30 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Mr Degradation wrote:
MRHblue wrote:
Doesn't that fly in the face of a Hulk unban? I honestly don't care about Hulk, but he does tutor them directly into play. Are we sure its not 'Blue has plenty of toys, it does not don't need more'?


The Hulk unban is very different type of discuss ion imo. Yes, it tutors up combo pieces- but it requires more steps than "spell resolves"- there are points to disrupt it fairly constantly, and an insane amount of tech choices to punish it.
And Gifts requires a lot more than 'spell resolves'. Gifts also has tons of interaction - GY, countermagic, removal of combo pieces etc. GY hate does nothing to hulk, and only creature removal is useful. Its a push at best

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Gifts almost always nets 4 combo pieces, and can only be interacted with effectively on the stack- for a card to outclass Intuition and Dig Through Time by such a margin leads to gamestate more anticlimactic then "Johnny popped his Hulk for the Wombo Combo"- without the necessary satisfaction of ending the game on the spot and shuffling up for the next one (even then, the defacto usage for Hulk is to toolbox in fair decks, more often than as the insta-win loop.) Gifts, by comparison doesn't just assemble the pieces for a combo deck, but it almost universally assembles a sort of softlock that other similar tools simply cannot recreate or combat reasonably- (in this sense, the Gifts ban has more in common with the Prophet of Kruphix ban than the Hulk ban in the way in which it impacts the format's philosophy of being optimized for highly social gameplay.)
We strongly disagree about Gifts only being interactive on the stack, as above. Painting Hulk as some toolbox, while saying Gifts 'usually results in a softlock' isnt an honest comparison. Hulk can do toolbox, or combo, or valuetown. So can Gifts . Its a terrible comparison to PoK, you cant reanimate it or clone it. Gifts does one thing once, the player decides how broken that is. Gifts is a boogeyman, like Hulk, and Koku, and Metalworker were. Of course people will do broken stuff with it, as Hulk auto-wins games now.

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sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-11 1:14 am 
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Quote:
And Gifts requires a lot more than 'spell resolves'. Gifts also has tons of interaction - GY, countermagic, removal of combo pieces etc. GY hate does nothing to hulk, and only creature removal is useful. Its a push at best


Protean Hulk has a dies trigger- replacement effects like Rest in Peace see it, hate it, and hit it. If, however- your argument is that Intuition actually cares about graveyard hate, then that suggests that a player is playing Gifts ontop of a field where Tormod's Crypt or a similar effect is represented- at which point, like any argument about gravehate and tutors, what is being described is either a piloting error, or a player so ready to finish the game that they'd bait the hate spell. Something being answered by hate or countermagic doesn't make it fair, either (infact, the purpose of hate cards in design is to break up combos- but 4 mana multi-tutor instants don't have a habit of being sufficiently impacted by hate short of Gaddock Teeg BECAUSE their speed allows them to played at the most opportune time to mitigate that hate.)

Quote:
We strongly disagree about Gifts only being interactive on the stack, as above. Painting Hulk as some toolbox, while saying Gifts 'usually results in a softlock' isnt an honest comparison. Hulk can do toolbox, or combo, or valuetown. So can Gifts . Its a terrible comparison to PoK, you cant reanimate it or clone it. Gifts does one thing once, the player decides how broken that is. Gifts is a boogeyman, like Hulk, and Koku, and Metalworker were. Of course people will do broken stuff with it, as Hulk auto-wins games now.


The assumptions here, from my own perspective have some weak footing.

-Gifts usually resulting in a softlock IS an honest analysis. How many times have you cast Intuition in a singleton format, and not been so massively ahead on card selection that your opponents lose if they aren't simultaneously going off with bigger, slower engines? Intuition is just powerful alone, Gifts straight up nets an extra card- and puts the decision, on another player while the person casting the Gifts is the only one with full information (unless someone honestly plays Telepathy.)

-Hulk is a slow card, with a specific trigger condition. It has to be played as a creature via casting or cheating it out- and then it has to completely satisfy the "Dies" condition- requiring a sacrifice outlet or being followed up with some flavor of mass removal that doesn't exile or tuck. What's backwards about the comparison; is that the cards in a deck have to support Hulk to create a combo (by making the Hulk easier to play, or using the extra cards and mana for sacrifice outlets.) Rather than being a card that needs to be supported for effective play, Gifts is instead a piece of support that often upholds entire gameplans regardless of the group's agreed upon power levels. From my perspective, this is like saying "The playgroup shouldn't discuss Intution as a possible houseban, because Academy Rector is still legal." or "Unban Ancestral Recall because Solemn Simulacrum is legal".

-Gifts isn't a boogeman- it's a card that is both redundant with, and surpasses Intuition in efficacy at assembling combos. It's not only one of the most powerful tutors ever printed (which wouldn't be banworthy-) but interacts in obscene ways with a singleton format at one of the highest tiers of cardspeed available. The format is extraordinarily sensitive to the effect specifically, it's the same principal as Trade Secrets and Prophet of Kruphix- wherein, both the multiplayer element and the singleton element of the game work against the game reaching a climactic and satisfying end.

Like just about every other card on the banlist (but especially Recurring Nightmare,) Gifts only makes sense relative to the format if playing it means you have to have a discussion with your playgroup first- If your group plays at such a sufficiently high powerlevel that your deck can pack Intuition and Gifts Ungiven- and you're still experiencing satisfactory high tension play- then that's a solid playgroup decision. But to honestly project that Gifts Ungiven isn't on the same level of oppression as Yawgmoth's Bargain in the context of a singleton format- then we can't do anything but politely rest on the foundation of our arguments given our individual experiences- (I learned to play in a super high power combo/combo busting oriented EDH playgroup- where digging for Intuition and Trade Secrets to amass combo pieces was what we did with our Islands- so that we could Capsize lock, Sylvan lock, create infinite mana for Stroke of Genius, or other such things before Sylvan, later Titan and prophet, and later still Trade Secrets all appropriately got the banhammer. Never, in my time doing Highlander since that playgroup have I even remotely felt that unbanning Gifts was an even remotely good idea.)

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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-11 5:17 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Mr Degradation wrote:
If, however- your argument is that Intuition actually cares about graveyard hate, then that suggests that a player is playing Gifts ontop of a field where Tormod's Crypt or a similar effect is represented- at which point, like any argument about gravehate and tutors, what is being described is either a piloting error, or a player so ready to finish the game that they'd bait the hate spell. Something being answered by hate or countermagic doesn't make it fair, either (infact, the purpose of hate cards in design is to break up combos- but 4 mana multi-tutor instants don't have a habit of being sufficiently impacted by hate short of Gaddock Teeg BECAUSE their speed allows them to played at the most opportune time to mitigate that hate.)
Thats also true of any very powerful card people are trying to just win right now with. Your supposition of additional cards and piloting errors by opponents to allow Gifts to go unchecked is possible of any of them. And Rest in Peace and friends sure hit Gifts too. Instant speed GY hate is the norm in better groups where Gifts would be an issue, yes?
Quote:
-Gifts usually resulting in a softlock IS an honest analysis. How many times have you cast Intuition in a singleton format, and not been so massively ahead on card selection that your opponents lose if they aren't simultaneously going off with bigger, slower engines?
Pretty much every time, when I have cast it or seen it resolved. Because if its an engine, it has pieces, and they have interaction. I fully admit to playing in a 'fair' meta, but thats the target demo.

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What's backwards about the comparison; is that the cards in a deck have to support Hulk to create a combo (by making the Hulk easier to play, or using the extra cards and mana for sacrifice outlets.) Rather than being a card that needs to be supported for effective play, Gifts is instead a piece of support that often upholds entire gameplans regardless of the group's agreed upon power levels.
You have to build around Gifts to make it this broken too. If you have agreed powerlevels, then you have fairly even decks. Gifts as value is just as viable as Hulk not as combo.

Quote:
Gifts isn't a boogeman- it's a card that is both redundant with, and surpasses Intuition in efficacy at assembling combos.
Agreed, but combo isnt a ban criteria anymore. Thats the jumping off point of this discussion.

Quote:
But to honestly project that Gifts Ungiven isn't on the same level of oppression as Yawgmoth's Bargain in the context of a singleton format- then we can't do anything but politely rest on the foundation of our arguments given our individual experiences- (I learned to play in a super high power combo/combo busting oriented EDH playgroup- where digging for Intuition and Trade Secrets to amass combo pieces was what we did with our Islands- so that we could Capsize lock, Sylvan lock, create infinite mana for Stroke of Genius, or other such things before Sylvan, later Titan and prophet, and later still Trade Secrets all appropriately got the banhammer. Never, in my time doing Highlander since that playgroup have I even remotely felt that unbanning Gifts was an even remotely good idea.)
And you think thats the type of playgroup that should be driving ban decisions?

I agree we wont come to a conclusion, and it probably won't get unbanned soon. But all these same things were said about Hulk and other stuff that came off.

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sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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