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 Post subject: Re: What is your stance on From the Ashes/Wave of Vitriol?
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-21 3:47 am 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
specter404 wrote:
So TLDR, my definition of a greedy mana base is any which has less than 2 basics of each colour in your CI, and if your deck meets that criteria then when wave kicks your mana base in the junk, you have no right to respond with vitriol.


Honestly, while I feel the same way; it does have to be something of a double standard that you hold against yourself. The functionality of the playgroup (atleast from my point of view) outweighs the scope of what any individual partaking views as fair play.

I don't think I've ever seen Ruination as a "dick move" (certainly not in the same way that Flashfires, Choke, Stern Judge and Boil are;) but that's mostly because contextually speaking, it comes hand-in-hand with the baggage of playing Mono R- and part of playing at a table with a mono R list is building decks to be Blood Moon resistant. There are bad draws, where it fundamentally ends the game outright, but I also quite enjoy playing several hands of Magic. That said, if a member of the playgroup has an irrational response to non-basic landhate, From the Ashes is a happy compromise, but still may be too salt-inducing to play in certain groups.

At that point, the choices become...
-Exclude that player from group or certain games (the least desirable option, imo.)
-Shelf the deck for games where players at the table understand the concepts at play, and can handle nonbasic hate. (To me, this is the preferable way to go.)
-Alter the deck to tech around nonbasic hate for the member of the group who goes on tilt (also undesirable, but something I have had to do.)

If all of your decks have something like Armageddon, Obliterate, or Capsize/Hoodwink-lock, then it may just be necessary to outfit a number of lists to be friendlier for the sake of the playgroup.

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 Post subject: Re: What is your stance on From the Ashes/Wave of Vitriol?
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-21 3:59 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
specter404 wrote:
So TLDR, my definition of a greedy mana base is any which has less than 2 basics of each colour in your CI, and if your deck meets that criteria then when wave kicks your mana base in the junk, you have no right to respond with vitriol.

While I agree that basic should be played, I dont think a clever phrase validates the opinion.

Playing Wave of Vitriol in a meta where such cards are frowned upon means you are not immune to criticism. We generally dont play LD in our group, as we dont generally play lands other than for fixing. Would wave wreck a few mana bases? I think so. Would it ruin the play experience for a number of players/decks? I think so. Would a card like Wave of Vitriol or From the Ashes get some frowns or requests for moritorium? Maybe... I wouldnt be surprised or upset if people requested I not play such a card.

It dependent on the group. Mechanically the cards are fair, and can be played around, but that doesnt mean much in the long run.

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 Post subject: Re: What is your stance on From the Ashes/Wave of Vitriol?
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-21 5:52 am 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Do any of your playgroups use "carrot" cards to encourage building with basics? Seems like running the random Veteran Explorer, New Frontiers or Collective Voyage could encourage more basics if they thought they might miss out on stuff.

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Last edited by Treamayne on 2017-Jul-02 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What is your stance on From the Ashes/Wave of Vitriol?
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-21 10:52 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
niheloim wrote:
Playing Wave of Vitriol in a meta where such cards are frowned upon means you are not immune to criticism....
It dependent on the group. Mechanically the cards are fair, and can be played around, but that doesnt mean much in the long run.

Sure, the will of the group is always paramount to anything else. I would advocate strongly for wave of vitriol in any group I joined, but if I'm outnumbered and the rest of the group is telling me they hate the card and won't change their decks, then I'll change.

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 Post subject: Re: What is your stance on From the Ashes/Wave of Vitriol?
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-22 7:42 pm 

Joined: 2009-Nov-28 7:07 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Never understood the fear of MLD.

What irritated me was the level of stoopid when people played MLD cards immediately upon drawing without considering the board state.


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 Post subject: Re: What is your stance on From the Ashes/Wave of Vitriol?
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-22 8:58 pm 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
green slime wrote:
Never understood the fear of MLD.

What irritated me was the level of stoopid when people played MLD cards immediately upon drawing without considering the board state.

The issue is that this has been built up as a casual format, and most players have an expectation that MLD isn't going to be used in a random pickup game. Playing with MLD can be fun and is something that closed groups should allow themselves to try at least a few times for the experience. But it's also not something that you should use and then expect random players to be happy about you casting.


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 Post subject: Re: What is your stance on From the Ashes/Wave of Vitriol?
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-01 5:15 pm 
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Joined: 2011-May-04 9:09 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Saskatchewan
I'm not much for either card, to be honest, unless it has a distinct purpose that isn't just punishing people for having fancy mana-bases. For instance, in my Baru, Fist of Krosa, I run Wave of Vitriol and non-basics as a way to finish a game off. People often forget that them putting Forests in play also buffs my board, and it's finished off more than a few games that way. I've also seen both cards used in Landfall decks, with things like Avenger of Zendikar, Rampaging Baloths, or Polluted Bonds.

When there is an honest strategy behind it, and not "herp derp, that's what you get for playing 5C good stuff", I'm all for it. Otherwise, I feel the cards are a little skeezy, and I'm a guy that runs heavy basic mana-bases typically.


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 Post subject: Re: What is your stance on From the Ashes/Wave of Vitriol?
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-02 2:00 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
What's my stance on From the Ashes/Wave of Vitriol? I cannot adequately express my opinion within the bounds of public decency and civil discourse.

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 Post subject: Re: What is your stance on From the Ashes/Wave of Vitriol?
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-02 2:45 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Sid the Chicken wrote:
What's my stance on From the Ashes/Wave of Vitriol? I cannot adequately express my opinion within the bounds of public decency and civil discourse.

no simple yea or nay?

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 Post subject: Re: What is your stance on From the Ashes/Wave of Vitriol?
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-03 6:05 am 
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Joined: 2013-Jul-25 1:15 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Durham, England
I mean... My stance on From the Ashes is if it killed your mana base you're probably the reason it got played. My stance on Wave of Vitriol is I run it in all my decks because Darksteel Forge combo and Dimir centric decks are the most common archetypes in my local meta, so I need powerful sweepers that can clear away the things the black and blue players simply can't. Getting rid of powerful lands is just a bonus.

Wave of Vitriol and From the Ashes are exactly the kind of cards I'd expect in a casual environment. They get rid of the powerful cards the tryhard players keep hiding in their manabases and only punish players if they're too greedy with their lands and artifact ramp. Lands deserve wrath effects just like all other card types. These are just a version that doesn't outright destroy people's mana bases and ruin all the fun.

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 Post subject: Re: What is your stance on From the Ashes/Wave of Vitriol?
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-04 2:01 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
niheloim wrote:
Sid the Chicken wrote:
What's my stance on From the Ashes/Wave of Vitriol? I cannot adequately express my opinion within the bounds of public decency and civil discourse.

no simple yea or nay?

I don't see this as a binary question - there are degrees of yea and nay. So do so would be to call the Pacific Ocean "moist". You could say that, and it would technically be true... but it doesn't really convey the whole picture.

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 Post subject: Re: What is your stance on From the Ashes/Wave of Vitriol?
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-11 10:07 am 

Joined: 2010-Apr-16 6:59 am
Age: Drake
Location: Freemont, NE (Omaha area) USA
Back in the day, I ran a "Vise Age" deck that consisted of 15 LD spells + 4 Strip Mine, 4 Black Vise (both restricted now), and 3 Nether Void as the lock piece. Crowd control was via 3 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and 3 Drop of Honey. Funny thing - no one else thought the Tabernacle was much good for anything back them, till they played against it.

This kind of deck is totally non-interactive, and absolutely NO FUN to play against. It was my opinion that since the restrictions mentioned above, and the onset of cards like Crucible of Worlds, and most recently Ramunap Excavator and a bunch of others besides (not to even mention all the multiple land drops per turn now possible) that just about any LD was a less than effective strategy.

Having the experience of how angry almost every opponent got while playing against this pile, I am personally well aware just how incredibly annoying such a strategy is. Commander is supposed to be about FUN not arguments, or - heaven forbid - rage. If it's not fun, it probably should not be run.

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 Post subject: Re: What is your stance on From the Ashes/Wave of Vitriol?
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-11 5:19 pm 

Joined: 2015-Apr-23 11:27 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
Both cards are played quite frequently around here, I don't think anyone has a problem with it.

Offcourse, there's groaning and moaning, threaths and insults fly across the table, but no more than when cards like Cyclonic Rift, Void Winnower or Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger get cast.

Destroying basic lands is considered a dick move in our playgroup, but non basics are fair game. We have very different card pools, some players , including myself, have been playing for a long time and can easily put lots of power (money) in a manabase, others have been playing since Lorwyn or simply can't afford fancy lands.

This variety in card pools makes cards like Ruination very satisfying for the less equipped players, and I don't mind it at all. Power to the people! :-)


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 Post subject: Re: What is your stance on From the Ashes/Wave of Vitriol?
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-12 12:28 am 

Joined: 2013-Jun-23 10:18 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I'm ok with land destruction up to and including Ruination, so it would be very odd for me to oppose a Ruination that let you stay at the same number of ("worse") lands.

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 Post subject: Re: What is your stance on From the Ashes/Wave of Vitriol?
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-12 6:17 am 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Orlando, Florida
I've started to use them in my playgroup due to the aforementioned greedy mana bases. The group as a whole has been shifting more and more towards nonbasics, but I didn't notice until recently after a cast New Frontiers where X was 15 only netted 9 basics from one player, and everyone else had gotten fewer than this (turn six cast). There's also been a general reduction of lands as a whole, but I'm hoping liberal application of The Great Aurora, From the Ashes, and Wave of Vitriol can reverse the trend.


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