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 Post subject: Better left as non-EDH?
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-06 4:31 pm 

Joined: 2016-Mar-16 12:03 pm
Age: Drake
Have any of you had a deck that you converted from non-EDH to EDH, but ended up moving it back to non-EDH? What was the reason you felt the deck idea was better as non-EDH?

I'm struggling with distilling my Sliver Queen token deck back to a normal highlander multiplayer deck. I have hit upon a card list that works really well as a 65 card token deck, but not really ready to pull the plug yet. I've found that my token deck is really too powerful for EDH in my group, but don't really like the idea of making it fluffier and less-lethal for the casual format. Was wondering what you guys thought.

Thanks.

For reference, here is the distilled version it would become to compare with the EDH decklist in my signature:
Lands: 25
1 each of the enemy Revised dual lands
1 each of the Alara tri-lands
1 each of the Scars of Mirrodin dual lands that don't come into play tapped with two or less lands
Volrath's Stronghold
Gaea's Cradle
Forbidden Orchard
Reflecting Pool
Kessig Wolf Run
Rupture Spire
Academy Ruins
Exotic Orchard
Kher Keep
Shimmering Grotto

Token Generators: 20
Dark Depths
Broodhatch Nantuko
Sliver Queen
Nest Invader
Hornet Nest
Tuktuk the Explorer
Kozilek's Predator
Ant Queen
Dragonlair Spider
Grave Titan
Deranged Hermit
Saber Ants
Thopter Foundry
Supply / Demand
Timely Reinforcements
Master's Call
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Garruk Wildspeaker
Sarkhan Unbroken
Xenagos, the Reveler

Non-token generating cards: 20
Sword of the Meek
Vampire Hexmage
Nullmage Shepherd
Biomass Mutation
Demonic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Second Harvest
Path to Exile
Decimate
Wargate
Swords to Plowshares
Chain Reaction
Descent of the Dragons
Mirror Entity
Eternal Witness
Death Grasp
Invoke the Firemind
Lavalanche
Clan Defiance
Saproling Symbiosis

_________________
Current decks:
Xenagos, God of Revels - Hydras

Under Re-Construction:
Hazezon Tamar - Defenders of Dune (only 8 less Fremen/equipment, adding ramp and answers)
Prime Speaker Zegana - Zegana's R&D
Jenara, Asura of War - Jenara's Celestial Army (needs more answers, ramp, less angels...turns out Jenara can tank quite effectively as a voltron.)

Nuked decks:
Sliver Queen - Tokens (converted back to the 60 card deck it originated from, ending its edh dependency on tutors)


Last edited by Arcane Archer on 2017-Jan-07 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Better left as non-EDH?
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-07 8:51 am 

Joined: 2016-Mar-16 12:03 pm
Age: Drake
I would be remiss not to point out that I'm not soliciting comments on the original EDH deck or the boiled down multiplayer deck. I just posted that stuff in case you wanted to understand why I'm wrestling with the decklist and power level of the EDH version. The main purpose is just to see if you've similarly done something and why the deck was better as non-EDH. Perhaps by hearing your stories it may give me something to consider as I work this deck. Thanks.

_________________
Current decks:
Xenagos, God of Revels - Hydras

Under Re-Construction:
Hazezon Tamar - Defenders of Dune (only 8 less Fremen/equipment, adding ramp and answers)
Prime Speaker Zegana - Zegana's R&D
Jenara, Asura of War - Jenara's Celestial Army (needs more answers, ramp, less angels...turns out Jenara can tank quite effectively as a voltron.)

Nuked decks:
Sliver Queen - Tokens (converted back to the 60 card deck it originated from, ending its edh dependency on tutors)


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 Post subject: Re: Better left as non-EDH?
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-07 3:31 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
It might help to know or which non-EDH Format you would be building.

Example: I have a great Chimera Tribal Wars Classic that I don't think I could translate into EDH. It relies on 4 each of the Brass-talon Chimera series from Visions.

It might also help to know a bit more about the possible EDH Deck? Are you considering a 5-color Token deck that happens to use Sliver Queen as General (for color and token theme) or a 5-color Sliver deck that happens to use a token theme to capitalize on the chosen general?

If you are worried about power level, have you considered focusing the theme (and limiting good-stuff cards in the deck that would now be off-theme) to help control the power level of the deck?

_________________
V/R

HK

Hazezon Tamar - Manland theme
Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
Progenitus - Hydra themed Proliferate Deck
Karona, the False God - Backstabbing Hug


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 Post subject: Re: Better left as non-EDH?
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-07 5:06 pm 

Joined: 2016-Mar-16 12:03 pm
Age: Drake
Treamayne wrote:
It might help to know or which non-EDH Format you would be building.

Example: I have a great Chimera Tribal Wars Classic that I don't think I could translate into EDH. It relies on 4 each of the Brass-talon Chimera series from Visions.

It might also help to know a bit more about the possible EDH Deck? Are you considering a 5-color Token deck that happens to use Sliver Queen as General (for color and token theme) or a 5-color Sliver deck that happens to use a token theme to capitalize on the chosen general?

If you are worried about power level, have you considered focusing the theme (and limiting good-stuff cards in the deck that would now be off-theme) to help control the power level of the deck?

Good questions. The EDH deck is already in existence as a five color deck. The link to it is in my signature, and Sliver Queen is the Commander for a horde of all types of tokens. Segrus helped me greatly with its formation. It is not a sliver deck. As my first entry back into EDH format after a disastrous attempt six years ago, it was admittedly heavy-handed because I didn't really want to get blown out in a store like last time and I also wanted to see what token hordes could do as a central theme. Although I haven't played in a store yet due to my real-life time demands, I am playing with my friends when I can and it regularly wins in pretty spectacular fashion that can only be described as "going off". Simply put, I wanted to push, experimenting with how powerful I can make something without it being too powerful, though it may well now be too powerful for the group I play in. The results of all this helped me to learn this format's limits and make my next three decks which are progressively better themed than this one and more in-line with EDH norms.

The EDH list you see in the signature link is what I might be playing with if it weren't for the wonky mana I seem to have to deal with when I don't have the extra tutors. Those tutors have been panned by others on this site, and I totally get why they are not in favor of them, so it's all good. What the deck morphed into is one that can not only blow up with mass amounts of tokens (the goal) by using Gaea's Cradle, Xenagos, the Reveler, and cards like Saproling Symbiosis but also then use those masses to fuel X-spells that either target enemies directly or token generators like Hornet Nest when Chain Reaction doesn't come into the hand. I added those x-spells because I noticed at times that I was too one-dimensional and had to wait for tutors or a top deck card to get that critical mass of tokens needed to flood past opponent's blockers. I can probably save the deck by taking the Vintage tutors back out, increasing lands, etc., and I'm still considering that, but I'm struggling with the idea that even if the other decks I have are less powerful and better themed, I built this one as a power deck to begin with. Hence asking the question of whether some decks are better left as non-EDH.

The 65 card deck I included above in the spoiler is all distilled from this EDH deck in its current form (other than the Deranged Hermit which I just picked up a few days ago). As a format, I tend to play Type I (Vintage) construction rules because I have never stopped playing with cards like Demonic Tutor and Sol Ring because I learned Magic when Revised had just hit the stores. I honor those restricted card lists in casual for the simple reason that they end up being pretty reasonable since I don't play much in the way of combo decks and infinite loops, even though some of my friends actually do things like use four Sol Rings when we play casual. The EDH deck was converted from a 60 card highlander with cards I have fun with that didn't have a place in other decks, but I've steadily increased the focus on tokens as the sole driver of the EDH deck. The funny thing is that my friends have become so competitive over the last few years that the 65 card deck would end up being a response to their deck power levels in multiplayer, as the original multiplayer fun deck I built was actually a bit underpowered in the group. So, my group's meta environment is pretty competitive in both EDH and casual non-highlander formats.

Anyway, I hope my rambling on the background of my post answers your questions sufficiently.

_________________
Current decks:
Xenagos, God of Revels - Hydras

Under Re-Construction:
Hazezon Tamar - Defenders of Dune (only 8 less Fremen/equipment, adding ramp and answers)
Prime Speaker Zegana - Zegana's R&D
Jenara, Asura of War - Jenara's Celestial Army (needs more answers, ramp, less angels...turns out Jenara can tank quite effectively as a voltron.)

Nuked decks:
Sliver Queen - Tokens (converted back to the 60 card deck it originated from, ending its edh dependency on tutors)


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 Post subject: Re: Better left as non-EDH?
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-07 5:55 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Well, maybe I'm mis-reading something, but it sounds like both decks are highlander, and both are accomplishing the same thing. So, I would suggest that it depends on which your group plays more, EDH or non-EDH (and in which of those venues you would enjoy the deck more).

You may also consider suggesting to your group some other formats (or format hybrids) that would allow you to flex the deckbuilding muscles in new ways; like Rainbow Stairwell, Star (OG version IMNSHO), Rainbow Stairwell EDH, Star EDH, tribal, etc.

Arcane Archer wrote:
Have any of you had a deck that you converted from non-EDH to EDH, but ended up moving it back to non-EDH? What was the reason you felt the deck idea was better as non-EDH?


Re: OP^

The only decks that I have had that I would not consider migrating to EDH )if I were so inclined) are those decks that need a non-highlander format to work. But then, the only highlander formats I play are EDH and Rainbow Stairwell.

_________________
V/R

HK

Hazezon Tamar - Manland theme
Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
Progenitus - Hydra themed Proliferate Deck
Karona, the False God - Backstabbing Hug


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 Post subject: Re: Better left as non-EDH?
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-07 6:19 pm 

Joined: 2016-Mar-16 12:03 pm
Age: Drake
True. I have always had a thing for rainbow highlander decks and was playing highlander in normal formats long before EDH came around. I usually always have one rainbow highlander among my normal decks for kicks and giggles.

You know, your response just triggered an idea. I suppose I could just keep the larger deck as a "loaf" in normal formats, playing it as an MP deck, and only breaking it out as an EDH once in a great while.

I'm leaning toward taking it out of EDH, however, as it really is a good stuff deck. Your observation was spot on. Good stuff works in our normal format variants and MP environment, but this one is just too optimized for EDH I think and I'm not sure I'd be happy "un-optimizing" it at this point.

_________________
Current decks:
Xenagos, God of Revels - Hydras

Under Re-Construction:
Hazezon Tamar - Defenders of Dune (only 8 less Fremen/equipment, adding ramp and answers)
Prime Speaker Zegana - Zegana's R&D
Jenara, Asura of War - Jenara's Celestial Army (needs more answers, ramp, less angels...turns out Jenara can tank quite effectively as a voltron.)

Nuked decks:
Sliver Queen - Tokens (converted back to the 60 card deck it originated from, ending its edh dependency on tutors)


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 Post subject: Re: Better left as non-EDH?
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-08 2:31 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Arcane Archer wrote:
Good stuff works in our normal format variants and MP environment, but this one is just too optimized for EDH I think and I'm not sure I'd be happy "un-optimizing" it at this point.


Well, you could use this as an opportunity to brew something new; either similar or completely different.

For something similar, you could maybe identify your favorite 2-card non-land synergies, define a narrower theme based on those cards (maybe tribal tokens with Karona, False Godas general, for example) and brew away.

For an idea that is completely different, you might look back at your Magic history. I also started MtG very early (Legends on the shelves, Revised just released, The Dark about to release), and one of the things I've been doing for inspiration is recalling those decks that I first loved over 2 decades ago and searching Gatherer/MTGO for possible Generals that could inspire a new version of those old decks. For example, one of my favorite cards from Ice Age was Hecatomb (I tried for months to get a deck working based on that card) and later, when Tempest released, I did make it work in Type 1.5 - with Death Pits of Rath. So my next deck is planned for a B or B/X "deathtouch/one-shot-kill" deck. I haven't decided the General or anything yet (still researching) and I may go Assassin Tribal with it (or some other direction) but the point is I'm excited to see how I can breath new life into a deck I loved long long ago.

_________________
V/R

HK

Hazezon Tamar - Manland theme
Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
Progenitus - Hydra themed Proliferate Deck
Karona, the False God - Backstabbing Hug


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 Post subject: Re: Better left as non-EDH?
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-08 7:36 am 

Joined: 2016-Mar-16 12:03 pm
Age: Drake
That's not a bad idea, actually. I've done something similar in a number of non-edh decks to see if the passing of time has enabled me to make a failed but totally cool concept work this time around, and I've ended up with some really good keepers that way.

Here's the irony about re-working a power edh deck with your suggestion, though. I played power decks far more back in the day. Juggernauts, Shivan Dragons, Forces of Nature, Mahamotti Djinns, and Wrath of God. Now, it's more about card interactions and deck synergy in most of my designs. But I still like the idea and will think about it.

_________________
Current decks:
Xenagos, God of Revels - Hydras

Under Re-Construction:
Hazezon Tamar - Defenders of Dune (only 8 less Fremen/equipment, adding ramp and answers)
Prime Speaker Zegana - Zegana's R&D
Jenara, Asura of War - Jenara's Celestial Army (needs more answers, ramp, less angels...turns out Jenara can tank quite effectively as a voltron.)

Nuked decks:
Sliver Queen - Tokens (converted back to the 60 card deck it originated from, ending its edh dependency on tutors)


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 Post subject: Re: Better left as non-EDH?
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-16 5:56 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I tend to build EDH decks around the commander so there is no possible conversion outside of the command zone.


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 Post subject: Re: Better left as non-EDH?
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-18 4:21 am 

Joined: 2016-Mar-16 12:03 pm
Age: Drake
Epsilon wrote:
I tend to build EDH decks around the commander so there is no possible conversion outside of the command zone.

Good point. I think most people do. I certainly did for my next three decks. I realize my initial question was a bit of a stretch there, for exactly that reason.

I will say, though, that Tremayne's feedback did help me move past the "but, but, but..." reaction to taking out the OP cards that have consistently allowed me to search for the exact card that allows me to zorch my friends. Although it started out as a 60 card highlander deck conversion, I think I can actually keep the deck now in EDH. I'd like some feedback, of course, to the changes made to see if it's still overpowered for casual play, but that should go into the Sliver Queen tokens thread instead of here.

Thanks to everybody who replied. Saving an edh deck ends up saving a lot resources and time, too, so it does matter.

_________________
Current decks:
Xenagos, God of Revels - Hydras

Under Re-Construction:
Hazezon Tamar - Defenders of Dune (only 8 less Fremen/equipment, adding ramp and answers)
Prime Speaker Zegana - Zegana's R&D
Jenara, Asura of War - Jenara's Celestial Army (needs more answers, ramp, less angels...turns out Jenara can tank quite effectively as a voltron.)

Nuked decks:
Sliver Queen - Tokens (converted back to the 60 card deck it originated from, ending its edh dependency on tutors)


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