Login | Register


All times are UTC - 7 hours


It is currently 2017-Nov-21 11:53 pm




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Attrition
AgePosted: 2017-Feb-26 3:41 am 

Joined: 2016-Sep-16 11:05 pm
Age: Wyvern
A question for the more experienced players.

In my playgroup there is an individual who heavily favors attrition style decks. He will find a solution to removing any card he does not like from play/game, and he will do it in a repeatable constant manner. He also triples up on repeatable protection to the point that a single player is unable to remove the important pieces. He does this in a variaty of different ways in multiple decks so it's not just a case of add more plowshares. He frequently wins by eliminating other players win pieces by removal or making them irrelevent.

Examples -
Karador with repeating ETB remove permanents/recursion/sac outlets.
Elesh Norn with many variations of white control


My question is - how do you beat decks that win via attrition? The only times he loses is from combo decks he's unable to answer immediately. He enjoys stax and typically removes any effect he doesn't like. I tend towards aggro, but that requires extremely fast decks that overpower casual tables. I don't want to have all of my new decks be built with the thought of mass power/combos. Nice guy, I just want viable ways to beat him.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Attrition
AgePosted: 2017-Feb-26 5:10 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I would suggest first the playgroup talk together. Are you the only one who feels this way (probably not)? Tell him if you aren't enjoying the games, and why? No one person should drive an entire playgroup, that's why compromise exists. If this player is simply unwilling to compromise, don't play with that player.

Stax is never fun. Stax in EDH is just worse.

It's hard to be more detailed without significant information about the Stax-type deck and the decks you are piloting.

But, for things like Karador, more graveyard removal may be warranted as well as general GY hate.

MWC can be tricky, depending on what the deck is running, but most color combinations have access to some anti-white (creatures like Akroma, angel of fury or Phyrexian Slayer; and hate-cards like Anarchy or Virtue's Ruin).

_________________
V/R

HK

Hazezon Tamar - Manland theme
Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
Progenitus - Hydra themed Proliferate Deck
Karona, the False God - Backstabbing Hug


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Attrition
AgePosted: 2017-Feb-26 1:56 pm 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I wouldn't call either of those decks Stax. Stax is resource denial. Those are just resilient control decks from the looks of things.

Can you identify specific pieces of removal, recursion, and protection you commonly see? Karador in particular is vulnerable to graveyard hate, like Bojuka Bog, Rest In Peace, Ground Seal, and Planar Void.

_________________
Deepglow Skate
Antis wrote:
I'm seriously suspicious of any card that makes Doubling Season look fair and reasonable.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Attrition
AgePosted: 2017-Feb-28 6:28 am 

Joined: 2016-Sep-16 11:05 pm
Age: Wyvern
He has an 8-9 creature hit squad that basically shuts the entire game down. Typical games will see 2-3 creature combos used repeatedly. Example Harmonic Sliver and Necrotic Sliver. He places sac outlets on the table to prevent instant speed removal, rather than rely on Karador he uses cards like E Witness or Karmic Guide for recursion.

So threaten his board state - he blows your stuff up and puts them into the graveyard. Attempt to graveyard hate - you'll find the graveyard empty by the time your spell resolves. Get lucky and catch one of hit squads, he still has 2-3 other combos to make your life miserable. He actually made the deck very non-reliant on Karador.

This is an example of how he wins via attrition. Solving for a single deck doesn't answer the 3-4 other decks he'll pull out using the same concept of winning once other decks are exhausted. He enjoys stax because it slows the game down for everyone. The more total resources he has available - the harder it is to deal with his board state.

Nothing is overpowered. There is no I win button/combo. But at the end of the day it's similar to trying to constantly punch a wall of slime. You exhaust yourself and realize you've done nothing to the wall. Eventually his ability to destroy/control outweighs your ability to threaten.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Attrition
AgePosted: 2017-Feb-28 12:10 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
More aggro and team attack?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Attrition
AgePosted: 2017-Feb-28 2:19 pm 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Modify when and how you play the yard hate. Wait for him to target before activating and such. Use more repeatable/targetable options rather than set it and forget it options. If there's a RIP on the board he'll just kill it before trying anything obnoxious. If you're holding a Stonecloaker or a crop rotation for bog, even if he's aware of it, he has to have twice as many answers to make sure his recursion resolves.

Also play Grand Abolisher type abilities if he's intent on having answers to everything. With the new equipment it's available to all colors. He can't sac in response if he can't activate anything.

His decks sound annoying but easily manageable. Graveyard decks fold to yard hate. Most people don't tend to include "enough" or play it properly which lets them go wild in a lot of groups.  

It sounds like he's metagamed your playgroup. It's your turn to metagame him. Add answers for his defenses and don't let him get to a position where he can answer everything. It does take a lot to answer three other players even when you can freely reuse your yard.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Attrition
AgePosted: 2017-Feb-28 9:00 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-Dec-26 7:50 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Amsterdam, Holland
First, you're not describing Stax here: Stax will prevent you from playing anything rather than answer what you play. As others also suggested: what you describe is control.

I am very much this kind of player. I tend to play more creatures, but that doesn't really make a big difference when it comes to attacking the strategy. You already identified what would be best to attack: "The more total resources he has available - the harder it is to deal with his board state.". What you really want to do is limit his resources. Everything you describe takes a lot of mana: make sure he doesn't have that. He can likely get around this, but, that means that he has to dedicate more cards to it and that weakens other parts of his deck. You could also consider limiting how much he can play by using Arcane Laboratory for example, which also has solutions, but again takes resources. Basically you should add angles of attack to the point where his deck gets stretched too thin. You may want to involve others because his decks are probably capable of dealing with just you, while keeping multiple players under control is very hard.

You are clearly aware of the issue, are the other players in your group? They may not realize how they are being beaten, or if they do, not see a way out (I know this was true for my group). It may be enough to make people realize that they need to play expecting to have to deal with him and waste fewer of their resources on other players so that you together keep him from taking over the game. You may also try talking with him: if my group had asked I would've been happy to discuss weaknesses of my decks. He may also be quite aware of where his weaknesses lie.

I personally don't think there's anything wrong with his strategy or metagaming a group in general, it however does mean that your group should evolve to deal with it and that might not be something everybody will like.

_________________
I'm a gabber and I feel alright
I sleep all day and I dance all night
I'm a gabber and I feel OK
I dance all night and I sleep all day


3 Steps Ahead - I'm A Gabber


Automatically add card tags to the card names in any text:
http://manabase.com/autocard.php


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Attrition
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-02 2:54 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
crimson wrote:
rather than rely on Karador he uses cards like E Witness or Karmic Guide for recursion.

Redundancy is nice, but those cards are still shut down by graveyard hate. When someone says that Karador is weak to yard hate, what they mean is Karador decks, not Karador specifically (even if the latter is still true) - you don't see Karador decks (or at least not good Karador decks) that don't use the yard a lot.

Have you tried Torpor Orb? I've seen decks so reliant on recurring ETB effects that they literally have no way to remove a resolved Torpor Orb.

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Attrition
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-04 2:55 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2010-Jan-25 4:50 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
This guy builds in a similar way to me. Very controlly and once his board is set up, almost impossible to deal with. My playgroup has warped to deal with me by ganging up on my decks and constantly knocking me down before I can ever really set up. Some players don't hit the weakest player on the board, but my group will make an exception if it is me to get me out of the game while they still can. Which is a far way to deal with it. Talk with your other players and make sure that you are not the only one packing countermeasures. Even with his resources he can't respond to 2-3 other people constantly knocking him down. All the stuff said so far on this thread has been spot on, let us know how it goes.

_________________
Kuro, Pitlord (Life gain)
Derevi (Manlands)
Marchesa (Modular)
Tajic (Indestructible)
Retired:
Animar (Morph)
Karona the False God (Lets Play a Quick Game)
Jenara, Asura of War (Lands Matter)
Krenko, Mob Boss (Goblins)
Zedruu the Christmas Goat (group hug)
Ramses Overdark (Assassin Deck)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Attrition
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-04 6:24 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Danbury, CT
So, just to clarify, this guy's not being a jerk or unfun, right? He's playing fair, and you want to beat him fairly?

...

I'm assuming you just want to beat him.

In sort of general strategic terms, there's a couple lines of attack you can use against the kind of deck you've described.

The first is to just play bigger. Play classic battlecruiser games; max out on your ramp and draw spells. As long as your nemesis is counting on 1-for-1 removal (even if it's recurring), they will start to fall behind as you flood the table with more cards than they can answer. Bonus points if you can find ways to pump the other players at the table as well... I'm envisioning crushing Karador with some sort of UG deck where you curve ramp spells into Boundless Realms into Time Spiral.

Play a higher number of higher threat-level creatures. Turn board wipes into a 1-for-1 trade by playing more army-in-a-can type creatures. White-based control decks don't always have a lot of ways to generate card advantage outside of board wipes, so if they have to burn those cards just to clear a single Avenger of Zendikar or Wolfbriar Elemental, they'll run out of cards and die pretty quickly.

Also in the battlecruiser line, you can simply run more big sorceries. If your nemesis is on the etb-value-creature train, it's possible you could crush him in one fell swoop with Rise of the Dark Realms. Similarly, a well-placed Insurrection might be a quick end for something like Elesh Norn.

The other line of attack is to play more decks that interact primarily on the stack. If your nemesis' goal is to destroy your board state, just don't build a board. Destroy him with burn spells (I like Price of Progress and Acidic Soil), or steal all of his things with Reins of Power and harvest his juicy death triggers for yourself.

Last, I'd try playing a more powerful general, ideally some appalling, derpy, monstrosity that will soak up infinite removal while carving advantage back out of your foe. I'm partial to Kaervek the Merciless, but there are plenty of good options.

You might also consider posting some decklists (both yours and your opponents, as best as you can remember).

_________________
Sanity links...
Kaervek, Friend of All Children
Sidisi, Sultai Dredge
EnchantRitheth
Wort Wort
Seton Devotion


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Attrition
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-06 2:52 am 

Joined: 2016-Sep-16 11:05 pm
Age: Wyvern
First - thank you all for a number of good ideas. To address some of the ideas/points mentioned here. (yes, the goal is to beat him fairly - he's not abusing anything beyond stupid levels of recursion)

1) I'm currently running two aggro style decks that can sometimes beat him or annoy him. Purphorus and Selvala (green deck wins style). Perfect goldfish on Selvala could drop a turn 4 gen wave for 45-50(x) value. My local playgroup likes to kill her on sight. I don't want keep trying to build hyped up aggro decks in an arms race if possible - but it does seem to be the most logical response.

2) I was using Karador as an example - I actually forgot the Mikaeus piece that makes all his removal 2 for 1 cuteness. Reading through the comments I would agree his decks all run towards control of some type. Destroy/remove anything he doesn't like with repeatable tricks. The trick is graveyard/hand disruption.

3) Staxx is a form of control - he typically likes it because the game becomes safer and more easy to manage. The level of staxx he personally applies varies from deck to deck, but he typically does not care when facing it from others. Anything he objects to he just makes vanish.

I'll look into some of the card ideas and thoughts present here. My only concern is building so many answers I forget to have a win con. I know he sometimes has very limited win cards due to so many answers placed in the deck.


Anyone wondering about the above mentioned Gen Wave:
Turn 1: forest, mana dork
Turn 2: forest, Selvala
Turn 3: forest, Natural Order on dork - Realm Seeker
Turn 4: Nature's Chosen on Selvala - tap/untap/tap - Gen Wave.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Attrition
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-04 4:29 am 

Joined: 2012-Sep-24 10:18 am
Age: Drake
Cursed Totem
Grafdigger's Cage
Witchbane Orb
Null Rod
Leyline of the Void + Helm of Obedience and beat him at his own game.

Gang up on him (have someone else play control and show him how it feels).

_________________
you can find me on mtgo under the same username


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Attrition
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-04 6:32 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Drake
crimson wrote:
A question for the more experienced players.

In my playgroup there is an individual who heavily favors attrition style decks. He will find a solution to removing any card he does not like from play/game, and he will do it in a repeatable constant manner. He also triples up on repeatable protection to the point that a single player is unable to remove the important pieces. He does this in a variaty of different ways in multiple decks so it's not just a case of add more plowshares. He frequently wins by eliminating other players win pieces by removal or making them irrelevent.

Examples -
Karador with repeating ETB remove permanents/recursion/sac outlets.
Elesh Norn with many variations of white control


My question is - how do you beat decks that win via attrition? The only times he loses is from combo decks he's unable to answer immediately. He enjoys stax and typically removes any effect he doesn't like. I tend towards aggro, but that requires extremely fast decks that overpower casual tables. I don't want to have all of my new decks be built with the thought of mass power/combos. Nice guy, I just want viable ways to beat him.



Wish I would've seen this sooner :o Maybe I could have chimed in. I love playing slower, more reactive decks- but from the sound of it, his decks may be poorly constructed if his method of winning is by sitting on stacks and just trying to remove everything- and you can take advantage of that.

First, the most important thing to understand, is that playing from behind, or playing for attrition is a disadvantage- one that in EDH often leads to simply getting blown out by decks that go big enough to stop your deck before it even gets off the ground. This disadvantage has to be curtailed through tech-choices which finely dovetail with your overall gameplan.

In spite of my defensive leanings, my first EDH deck was Rhys, The Redeemed- and many of my testing mates enjoyed more aggro/midrange based builds- and played them effectively; forcing me to understand the limits of passiveness, and forcing me to build better to make them work.

A thing to understand first, is that there are generally 2 types of defense in EDH. There is the passive defense, which relies on enchantments and artifacts that mitigate aggression typically- and is supported by being relied on heavily by instant speed removal. Passive defenses have a habit of trying not to play during their turn, preferring to play almost exclusively on other player's turns. Because we're playing with Vintage material, these strategies are largely inferior unless they build up to a powerful combo. Typically these involve Generals like Angus Mackenzie, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, Derevi, Empyrial Tactician. These can be built powerfully AND fun- but are often all too easy to punish with the typical rogues gallery of hate cards played at the right times (Gaddock Teeg and friends.) I've seen some sweet stax builds that pivot hard with Bruna, Light of Alibaster, Starfield of Nyx, Righteous Authority etc.- but in general they get absolutely creamed by anything rocking big enough alpha strikes through the likes of Kamahl, Fist of Krosa, True Conviction, Vicious Shadows, Infect etc. in the hands of a capable player. Against this, hateful cards like Qasali Pridemage and Mardu Woe-Reaper will serve you well. Break their combo, slow roll some threats to bait excessive removal, go for the throat with massive threats.

The active defense, on the otherhand is both trickier to build- and preferable to my tastes as a player. Where a passive defense is all about trying to use catchalls to stall for a gamestate where the player hypothetically has infinite resources- Having an active defense requires understanding the principal that you simply cannot afford to answer everything- and going out of your way to assemble a series of catchalls tends to disrupt your own ability to develop a plan unless you absolutely have a combo-kill to tie it all together. Actively defensive decks have a habit of playing slower, answering fewer things, and hesitating to exhaust defensive resources (spells like Comeuppance.) Fighting these typically involve being more engaged in mind-games, and understanding the relatively fair strategy that usually fuels them- Knowing that it's typically not worth going out of your way to deal with the marginal advantage they keep building up- since overreacting to them will usually involve dealing with a hard-pivot that leaves you out of the game entirely.

In either case, if you can't "go over" a deck that plays for long term advantage- and the obstacles make it difficult to "go under" in your current build- try rethinking your sum strategy. Is it not clear or redundant enough? Does it not go big enough because of the limitations on EDH as a format? I've seen many great players stumped by the format, because the usual rules for deckbuilding go right out the window. When I first built Rhys, I realized in my first few games that haphazard spending of any of the 99 slots are supremely punishing. Eventually, I just learned how to utilize Rhys' second ability to make bigger plays because usual forms of aggression didn't hit hard enough (learned to really appreciate Knotvine Paladin)

_________________
niheloim wrote:
Wall of Chat. 2U
Creature- Wall

Defender
Wall of chat exceeds at using a lot of words to mischaracterize opposing view points.

Warp Riders (Ephara Solar Flare)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 23 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: