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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-16 8:00 pm 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Dragon
OldVig wrote:
Does this change anything? Does it put it more firmly in the spotlight?
I like good cards so I don't think so.

How could it be any less in the spotlight? It's the ubiquitous card of the format, virtually emblematic.

I don't think that changes anything though.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-23 11:47 pm 

Joined: 2018-Oct-23 11:36 pm
Age: Egg
so, i have a question, which is the philosophy of commander?... too many people complaining about fast mana, but, its worst when you lose the game without play a land... i believe that ban flash is a must... my meta has become very sterile with flash and protean hulk (i don't care protean hulk). The experience to the new players is awful. In that way we kill the commander philosophy.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-24 12:48 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
medvet wrote:
so, i have a question, which is the philosophy of commander?... too many people complaining about fast mana, but, its worst when you lose the game without play a land... i believe that ban flash is a must... my meta has become very sterile with flash and protean hulk (i don't care protean hulk). The experience to the new players is awful. In that way we kill the commander philosophy.

Right ... so, don't play with that guy.

Should be pretty easy to get other people to agree. I mean, what's the point of shuffling up if you don't even get a turn. Or alternately, tell the guy "You win, now we're going to play for 2nd."

The benefit of flash/hulk (especially when it happens before players get a turn) is that you now know this person isn't playing for the same reason you are. Which is perfectly fine. It also means that this person, without coaching, will likely ruin the kinds of games you want (if you want a longer more interactive game.) So wouldn't you rather know earlier that this guy wrecks games?

As well -- Flash->Hulk into a winning combo in multiplayer requires a certain mindset to do -- this is the person who is in it to win. If that's not why you're playing commander (and it isn't the purpose behind it) then simply don't play with that person.

If Hulk and/or Flash were banned -- this person would just move on to the next good/resilient combo to win as fast as he can. This is a player problem. You want to use fencing foils and have a nice to look at, choreographed fencing duel. This guy showed up with a gun. The likelihood of him showing up with a fencing foil is minimal unless you sit him down and tell him (as a group works better) what kinds of things you want out of your commander games.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jan-21 8:18 am 

Joined: 2018-Apr-09 11:02 am
Age: Hatchling
I just want to provide a small update regarding Expropriate: Most players in our Commander group play it in their blue decks and it really is the most effective "I-win-button" that we have ever had.

Even Sylvan Primordial could be stolen/reanimated/etc which leads to interactive situations at least. And Prophet of Kruphix didn't do much without gas in your hand.

But you can always just play some ramp and cast Expropriate and in 99% of cases, you win in my group. We do not want to house ban a card because our playerbase is quite big and I find house bans irritating.

Nevertheless, I still think printing Expropriate was a mistake, the card is so grossly overpowered that most "SCD" threads just say stuff like "cast this and you win the game in most scenarios" >.<


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jan-21 8:42 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
What modes are players choosing? Time Warp + Blatant Thievery shouldn't necessarily win the game unless you're already in a good spot, and if you have good board state and cast a nine mana spell winning the game isn't unreasonable.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jan-21 9:52 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Mahtan wrote:
"cast this and you win the game in most scenarios" >.<


I think more than anything, the question is when are they casting it? If they are winning on turn 5, that is way different than turn 15. Regardless of how they are winning on t1-5 that isn't the norm and should have no effect on potential bannings.

If they are changing who the general is because they want blue for Expropriate, for example if The Gitrog Monster picks up U then that is a concern. If everybody is playing U because it is just a race to cast Expropriate that is another concern.

Reality is that a 9 mana spell should significantly affect the game. Why else would you pay that much?

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Shabbaman wrote:
The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jan-21 11:24 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Mahtan wrote:
We do not want to house ban a card because our playerbase is quite big and I find house bans irritating.

Could you expand on why you think house bans are "irritating"? It seems you don't want to take responsibility for removing the card, and would prefer to let the RC take any 'heat' for it. Am I way off?

The entire EDH group of players is quite a bit larger than your group, so why is making a change to that group more desirable?

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My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jan-21 3:28 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
MRHblue wrote:
Mahtan wrote:
We do not want to house ban a card because our playerbase is quite big and I find house bans irritating.

Could you expand on why you think house bans are "irritating"? It seems you don't want to take responsibility for removing the card, and would prefer to let the RC take any 'heat' for it. Am I way off?

The entire EDH group of players is quite a bit larger than your group, so why is making a change to that group more desirable?

You cannot force others to play by your rules. Having a large playerbase with dissenting opinions who are all encouraged by a reckless and lazy rules committee to "make up your own rules" results in people who seem to all agree "Yeah fuck Expropriate! We understand each other!" Then they sit down and one of them casts Child of Alara and blows up the board 4 times.

Everyone has different opinions and Mahtan is trying to describe there are too many people to say "I don't play with/against Expropriate". Then the people with Expropriate are like "oh okay, i'll find someone who will". Because you aren't likely to get them to change their decks on your whims. So you find someone who also hates that card (or more likely, just doesn't own it) and sit down to play. Then you stomp them with your ramp into Craterhoof deck and they're upset you would play such a braindead and easy win-button.

It just goes around and around. Everyone who thinks there are a couple cards that ought to be banned or unbanned are generally going to differ a little bit. It's not possible for everyone to agree to house rules when we are talking about the greater sphere of the LGS and not our home when we invite a few friends over.

Build your deck to house rules and you're just supposed to keep changing it when you play with certain people are your store? Or travel? Who wants all that bookkeeping? House rules are shite unless you play at home/run your own event. A lot of people don't have the luxury of so many local players that they can always find someone who won't play the cards they dislike.

This block of my opinion isn't about whether or not Expropriate should or should not be banned, just that house rules are not a holy silver bullet panacea for all ails. They are just a mess imo.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jan-23 7:28 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I asked them specifically because they had a specific card and a specific LGS in mind. Maybe there was some nuance.

If I wanted a regurgitation about how 'bad house bans are' and how 'lazy the RC is' I would have asked that.

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sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jan-23 8:56 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I can't share an opinion on why people shouldn't be surprised that some people say house bans are irritating, but you can imply that person can't take responsibility for their opinions without any information? It's literally not possible for everyone to freely and unhindered come up with house rules and they had already said there was too many people, but you somehow ended up on "What, can't take the heat?" Pfft. Sorry i addressed you noble sir, but it's just a public forum and when your stance is defaulted to surprise because someone should just be able to change the rules of the game and if they don't they are automatically avoiding 'heat', i may or may or may not respond because that is ridiculous. This wouldn't even be a problem if house rules weren't encouraged. No one's default stance should be "why didn't you just change the rules of the game? you must be scurr'd".

I don't know why you responded with salt, but i hope it didn't seem like my diatribe was some kind of personal attack. It certainly wasn't meant to be. I see now maybe the length came off with too much vigor for an opinion and maybe seems like i was upset with you as if i blamed you for house rules or something.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jan-24 12:42 am 

Joined: 2017-Oct-19 12:02 am
Age: Drake
Sovarius wrote:
MRHblue wrote:
Mahtan wrote:
We do not want to house ban a card because our playerbase is quite big and I find house bans irritating.

Could you expand on why you think house bans are "irritating"? It seems you don't want to take responsibility for removing the card, and would prefer to let the RC take any 'heat' for it. Am I way off?

The entire EDH group of players is quite a bit larger than your group, so why is making a change to that group more desirable?

You cannot force others to play by your rules. Having a large playerbase with dissenting opinions who are all encouraged by a reckless and lazy rules committee to "make up your own rules" results in people who seem to all agree "Yeah fuck Expropriate! We understand each other!" Then they sit down and one of them casts Child of Alara and blows up the board 4 times.

Everyone has different opinions and Mahtan is trying to describe there are too many people to say "I don't play with/against Expropriate". Then the people with Expropriate are like "oh okay, i'll find someone who will". Because you aren't likely to get them to change their decks on your whims. So you find someone who also hates that card (or more likely, just doesn't own it) and sit down to play. Then you stomp them with your ramp into Craterhoof deck and they're upset you would play such a braindead and easy win-button.

It just goes around and around. Everyone who thinks there are a couple cards that ought to be banned or unbanned are generally going to differ a little bit. It's not possible for everyone to agree to house rules when we are talking about the greater sphere of the LGS and not our home when we invite a few friends over.

Build your deck to house rules and you're just supposed to keep changing it when you play with certain people are your store? Or travel? Who wants all that bookkeeping? House rules are shite unless you play at home/run your own event. A lot of people don't have the luxury of so many local players that they can always find someone who won't play the cards they dislike.

This block of my opinion isn't about whether or not Expropriate should or should not be banned, just that house rules are not a holy silver bullet panacea for all ails. They are just a mess imo.


I am glad theat the RC is not willing to swing the banhammer all the time because that is not what commander is all about.

House rules are the solution for what you are asking for, I know playgroups that does not allow counterspells in their games because they think cs are boring, and you know what I won't play with tmem, my playgroup dont like fast cEDH deck so if you win with flash/hulk turn 0, that will be the 1st and last time we play with you. and a long etcetera.

If RC ban everything people is asking for, the banlist will have 1000+ cards.

Personally I like the banlist as short as it is and if it where for me I would unban some things.

EDH is not a competitive format so there is no real need for "tunning the meta"

And here is my 2cts for you, if Expropiate is winning too many games in you meta then be a good simic and adapt your game, expropiate can be countered, expropiate have a mode when you can let the acster take one of your stuff instead of a turn, if the expropiate acster is having more than 1 extra turn when cast (because other players are voting time) then the table is playing badly

So,

1. If suscesfully casted Expropriate, always vote money
2. Adapt your game, if you play red you have Stranglehold, red elemental blast, pyroblast, if you play blue then counterspells, if you play white or black then have some removals/blinks for the stuff he picks, etc.


Edit: BTW I also don't like house rules so I never use any nor play with playgroups that wants to enforce them.

I "hate" some mechanics but all of those are part of the game and I prefer to adapt, I found more obnoxious Narset, enlightened master taking tunrs after turns, gettin PW for free and holding all their mana for answers rather than Expropriate, and I remember that one player in my PG started playing it, so we adapt putting trinisphere and other "hate" cards and that deck that (for me) was unfair became just useless to the point he never played again.

So, if something is annoying you too much, adapt or dont play with those guys

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jan-25 9:17 am 

Joined: 2018-Apr-09 11:02 am
Age: Hatchling
Thank you for sharing your thoughts about Expropriate.

Don't get me wrong. I don't want to start a revolte against that card or want to bully the rules guys to ban the card. It's a fine card, printed in a set full of interesting cards for multiplayer. Take Selvala's Stampede for example, which has the same keyword "council's dilemma". Both cards are quite pushed, but Expropriate is the most pushed one, I would argue. And I would draw the line there at least, cards should not be more pushed in their ability to end the game for 8-10 mana.

The card of course doesn't offer more than 1 extra turn in 99.9% of cases, because people are not dumb. A combo should be prevented, but in any other case you will not donate additional extra turns. But even 1 extra turn and Blatant Thievery is often enough to seal the deal. When you play Expropriate, you play blue, the color that has access to many effective counterspells for the lategame, like Cryptic Command or Mystic Confluence. Expropriate just does so much: It untaps your lands, it draws a card, it removes the biggest threat of each player and gives you a bunch of threats to your disposal, most likely protected by countermagic. It's the combination that is so hard to play against, especially if you don't have access to discard or countermagic.

I get the argument that a 9 mana spell should end the game, but I would argue that this is the most powerful 9 mana spell available. Even a kicked Rite of Replication or Rise of the Dark Realms will not untap your lands most of the time, which opens you for sweepers and other answers. Cyclonic Rift is even stronger than these two, but doesn't provide a threat on its own. Genesis Wave for 6 or more will provide some lands, but still, the results will often be less dangerous than Blatant Thievery + Time Warp.

Keep in mind, this is just my experience, with my playgroup. We are around 15 players and play each week with 4-5 people of that pool. Some people play strong decks, some people just play slightly modified preconstructed decks.
From this perspective, Expropriate stands out as the one-way direction for a game that leads to boring endings. Extra turns are often hated by underpowered players, but my impression is, that this card shifts a game too much to be defended. I dislike the card, think it was a mistake to print it and would argue, that you should keep an eye on it and talk to your people if they are annoyed by it.

As a side note: I am quite happy with the ban list. I like the "keep it simple and short as far as possible"-approach and would not even follow my own argumentation so far to kick Expropriate out as a legal card. I don't have enough data about how other groups feel about that card. And I don't want the 20 bucks to be wasted ;)


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jan-29 11:50 am 

Joined: 2018-Apr-09 11:02 am
Age: Hatchling
https://youtu.be/95_qDsC-C3c?t=1664

A video from The Command Zone (published 25.01.2019), where the game is ended by Expropriate. I love that the player argues "actually about 5 times in my magic career I have this card cast on me and I have lost every single time. So I have decided to finally use it myself". :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jan-30 10:51 am 

Joined: 2011-Feb-15 7:09 am
Age: Drake
Mahtan wrote:
https://youtu.be/95_qDsC-C3c?t=1664

A video from The Command Zone (published 25.01.2019), where the game is ended by Expropriate. I love that the player argues "actually about 5 times in my magic career I have this card cast on me and I have lost every single time. So I have decided to finally use it myself". :lol:

So granted 5 turns in a row would have been hard to overcome, and yet the other 3 players really handed Jimmy the game when they passed on destroying the active planar bridge and then passed on dealing lethal damage to Emrakul with the on board effect that all 3 could see. I don't feel this is proof that Expropriate was the deciding factor.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jan-30 11:43 am 

Joined: 2018-Apr-09 11:02 am
Age: Hatchling
OldVig wrote:
Mahtan wrote:
https://youtu.be/95_qDsC-C3c?t=1664

A video from The Command Zone (published 25.01.2019), where the game is ended by Expropriate. I love that the player argues "actually about 5 times in my magic career I have this card cast on me and I have lost every single time. So I have decided to finally use it myself". :lol:

So granted 5 turns in a row would have been hard to overcome, and yet the other 3 players really handed Jimmy the game when they passed on destroying the active planar bridge and then passed on dealing lethal damage to Emrakul with the on board effect that all 3 could see. I don't feel this is proof that Expropriate was the deciding factor.


I am 99% convinced that this (sponsored) production is totally scripted. I mean, turn 1 Skullclamp?!
The gameplay video is not a proof for anything. I just wanted to refer to the quoted dialogue lines, which are still kind of true 8)


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