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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-08 11:42 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
FelixLovestar wrote:
It is in practically every deck that runs blue, it either ends a game on the spot or stalls it for another half hour, and has no real way of being stopped, aside from a counterspell, which mandates playing blue, in which case you'll be running Rift anyway.

These points I'll agree with.

FelixLovestar wrote:
While I appreciate that the Rules Committee exists within a less abusive meta,

You know, I see this argument a lot, and yet I've never seen any solid evidence that it's true. I've read a number of Sheldon's game report articles, and while they might not be playing "Who can combo out the table first" EDH, Cycrift isn't good in that sort of an environment, because you typically won't have time to reach the 7 mana you need to make it better than a common Boomerang. The kinds of games that make Rift good, it appears they play, so I'd wager Sheldon & Co. have had plenty of experience both using it and having it used against them.

FelixLovestar wrote:
ability to hit non-land permanents is what ultimately breaks the card

Not hitting your things and being instant speed is what makes the card good. Being restricted to non-land is why Upheaval is banned and this isn't.
FelixLovestar wrote:
Furthermore, the card is a $20 staple due to it's widespread use, and acts as a barrier of entry to the format

No. $20 is not a barrier to entry.

FelixLovestar wrote:
any deck that can run it, not running it, is objectively weaker and less likely to win a game.

This really isn't a good argument. As I pointed out above, some environments are too fast for Cycrift, and having it in your deck makes it a dead card. Some decks are tight enough on space that they don't have room for such a goodstuff card. And there are always going to be "strongest cards" in the format, in all colors. Even if we take the assertion that it always makes your deck better to be true, that in itself is not a reason to ban it.
FelixLovestar wrote:
The card warps the format around itself, and has become the single most played non-land card in the format after Sol Ring.

Do you have any evidence to back that up? Something non-anecdotal would be needed.

What this all comes down to is, yes Cyclonic Rift is a powerful card, and yes powerful cards are generally popular and get played a lot, and yes they can win games or at least swing things in their casters' favor. But none of that means they need banning. Looking at the list of criteria, the only one that really comes close is "Problematic Casual Omnipresence", and while I agree that it qualifies for Casual Omnipresence, I don't agree that it's become problematic. It's not warping the format. I've never seen someone run a card like Red Elemental Blast because they feel they need to stop Cycrift. I've never seen someone build their deck assuming there will be a Cycrift in someone else's deck that they can abuse somehow. So I disagree that the card needs to be banned.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-08 12:23 pm 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Dragon
FelixLovestar wrote:
Cyclonic Rift [...] has become the single most played non-land card in the format after Sol Ring.

I'll add a citation to that: EDHRec ranks that as card #2 on its top card list. It's in 54% of decks on its records, and one of three cards in >50% of recorded decks. (The other two are Sol Ring and Swords to Plowshares.)

However I'd also point out blue doesn't have many sweepers. White gets a ton, black gets a bunch, red has a bunch of mass damage options. I can pick various sweepers in those colors depending on my strategy, but if I want to have a blue sweeper available it's pretty much just Cyclonic Rift, Aetherize, Devastation Tide/Evacuation, or not having a blue sweeper. I think if there were more variety in worthwhile options we wouldn't see Cyclonic Rift being so ubiquitous. (It'd still be very common, just less so.)

Also on the top 100 are Supreme Verdict, Merciless Eviction, Blasphemous Act, Wrath of God, and Vandalblast, and no other sweepers: if you're in any of those colors those are your staple sweepers too. But you're also in colors where you have other options: if you're in white you don't need to pay $10 for a Wrath of God, you've got tons of cheaper more one-sided options to go for instead, like Fell the Mighty.

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Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


Last edited by spacemonaut on 2018-Sep-08 11:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-08 2:10 pm 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Orlando, Florida
FelixLovestar wrote:
I have been deliberating for a long time, and in my humble opinion, Cyclonic Rift has become too obnoxious for the card to be allowed to remain in the format.
Being obnoxious is not a qualifier to become banned. Iona, Shield of Emeria is much worse in terms of being obnoxious.

FelixLovestar wrote:
It is in practically every deck that runs blue, it either ends a game on the spot or stalls it for another half hour, and has no real way of being stopped, aside from a counterspell, which mandates playing blue, in which case you'll be running Rift anyway.
Dosan, City of Solitude and cards like it prevent Rift from being cast when its inconvenient. Also, they can't win on the spot if your group is playing enough spot removal.

FelixLovestar wrote:
Furthermore, the card is a $20 staple due to it's widespread use, and acts as a barrier of entry to the format, as any deck that can run it, not running it, is objectively weaker and less likely to win a game.
$20 is nothing. It's cute. Try over $1,000 for Library of Alexandria or a Mox.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-09 6:47 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I can’t remember the last time I was Rifted. I can remember a few times when it was an absolute blowout, but when it was it was because of my play and my deck - I had overextended. A game plan that folds to rift lacks resilience. A rift that ends the game means that the player had a board state that could end the game in a single turn if unopposed. Both of these have fairly straightforward solutions that involve growth as a deck builder and player, and are therefore desirable.

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Antis wrote:
I'm seriously suspicious of any card that makes Doubling Season look fair and reasonable.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-10 8:35 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
I can’t remember the last time I was Rifted.

The last time I was rifted, he was forced to use it defensively, and it merely forestalled his demise for a turn or 2.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-10 12:23 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
Quote:
Cycrift isn't good in that sort of an environment, because you typically won't have time to reach the 7 mana you need to make it better than a common Boomerang.


I'm basically disagreeing for the sake of it here, but some of the most competitive decks around disagree with you:

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/chain-veil-teferi/
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/breakfast-hulk/
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/12-05-17 ... -doomsday/
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/grixis-flux-1/

Quote:
Do you have any evidence to back that up? Something non-anecdotal would be needed.


https://edhrec.com/top

yeah, he actually wasn't kidding about 2nd most played card in the format. I know that might not sound like much, but to put that into perspective, did you notice what isn't on that list? Basically every single other card in the format that gets complained about on a routine basis, unless you count tutors and fast mana I guess.

Would I ban it? Not before a whole lot of other things that are far more abusive, but it's ludicrous ubiquity can't really be understated.

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

QFT


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-10 12:35 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
As pointed out before, it's ludicrous ubitquity (and I'm not arguing that phrase at all) is because it's the one card in blue that does that.

Removing creatures and other permanents in white? You have a bunch of options, so no one card is going to be as used as Cyclonic Rift.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-10 7:26 pm 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Dragon
Viperion wrote:
As pointed out before, it's ludicrous ubitquity (and I'm not arguing that phrase at all) is because it's the one card in blue that does that.

Removing creatures and other permanents in white? You have a bunch of options, so no one card is going to be as used as Cyclonic Rift.

Hear hear. I think so as well. My kingdom for some new & different blue sweepers.

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Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-11 6:32 am 
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Joined: 2015-Mar-18 12:55 pm
Age: Drake
spacemonaut wrote:
Viperion wrote:
As pointed out before, it's ludicrous ubitquity (and I'm not arguing that phrase at all) is because it's the one card in blue that does that.

Removing creatures and other permanents in white? You have a bunch of options, so no one card is going to be as used as Cyclonic Rift.

Hear hear. I think so as well. My kingdom for some new & different blue sweepers.

Is Coastal Breach being considered?

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Sheldon wrote:
The cards didn't just warp the way the games were played, they warped how I was conceiving and perceiving the format. That's the sign of a problem.

Carthain wrote:
The idea that you should be able to build your deck however you want and still be competitive is false, and a bad idea to have. Taken to the extreme, that's like making a deck with no removal in it, and then complaining that you can't win because stuff your opponents play gets in your way.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-11 9:09 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
It’s a fine sweeper, but Rift is asymmetric and (effectively) modal, which is worth the extra couple mana on the overload.

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Antis wrote:
I'm seriously suspicious of any card that makes Doubling Season look fair and reasonable.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-11 1:23 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Gath Immortal wrote:
Quote:
Cycrift isn't good in that sort of an environment, because you typically won't have time to reach the 7 mana you need to make it better than a common Boomerang.


I'm basically disagreeing for the sake of it here, but some of the most competitive decks around disagree with you:

I'm not going to waste my time reading those decklists, but let's be real here - in an environment where you're trying to win turn 2 (or earlier), that card can't possibly be a format boogeyman. It's a powerful card that I'd guess gets run in case shit goes south and someone blocks your combo.

Gath Immortal wrote:
yeah, he actually wasn't kidding about 2nd most played card in the format. Would I ban it? Not before a whole lot of other things that are far more abusive, but it's ludicrous ubiquity can't really be understated.

That's fine, and it's why I asked for some backup of the claim - you can't deny that hyperbole is used WAY too much in forum posts, especially when complaining about something. Beyond that, I stand by my assertion that its ubiquity is not problematic. It hasn't broken the format the way things like Emrakul and Prime Time did.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-17 10:19 pm 

Joined: 2014-Apr-03 3:46 am
Age: Drake
Guys why are we talking about Crift when we all know that the real problem is Sol Ring.

Sol ring is the number #1 most played card in edh by a huge margin. Almost 80% while cyclonic sits at pathetic 53%.

Cyclonic costs 7 mana to overload while Sol ring is 1 mana. Fog on turn 7 or win game on turn 1. I wonder which is better?

I've been trying to play games without sol ring but most of the time people question why sol isn't allowed and when I reply (if I didn't want to play against stax, land destruction, time magic etc. nobody would bat an eye) with sol ring being a broken magic card people start debating, cursing and calling me a shitty person. There as one game where I dared to voice my opinions on sol ring people would gang up on me and take me out and then just play sol ring anyway. Note that this was a lobby hosted by me with the title of "no sol ring".

Fun social format we got here.

Even if RC doesn't ban Sol Ring they could make a list of cards that are little too strong and you should discuss with your playgroup before playing them. Like they did with uncards last December.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-17 10:40 pm 

Joined: 2015-Apr-23 11:27 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
illuknisaa wrote:
Guys why are we talking about Crift when we all know that the real problem is Sol Ring.


Old discussion, both sides in deep trenches, I don't expect to see any changes happening considering SR.

That said, I totally agree with you. Yeah, yeah, I know all the pro arguments, people gang up on T1 Sol Ring players, there's Mana Crypt, etc.

I'm convinced however that SR has nothing to add to this format. I've never seen a game improve because of Sol Ring, while I've seen a lot of games get wrecked by it.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-18 12:51 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
illuknisaa wrote:
Guys why are we talking about Crift when we all know that the real problem is Sol Ring.

Sol ring is the number #1 most played card in edh by a huge margin. Almost 80% while cyclonic sits at pathetic 53%.

Cyclonic costs 7 mana to overload while Sol ring is 1 mana. Fog on turn 7 or win game on turn 1. I wonder which is better?


Overly hyperbolic descriptions do not advance the age old discussion here. CRift is not fog and Sol Ring is not an I Win button.

Quote:
I've been trying to play games without sol ring but most of the time people question why sol isn't allowed and when I reply (if I didn't want to play against stax, land destruction, time magic etc. nobody would bat an eye) with sol ring being a broken magic card people start debating, cursing and calling me a shitty person. There as one game where I dared to voice my opinions on sol ring people would gang up on me and take me out and then just play sol ring anyway. Note that this was a lobby hosted by me with the title of "no sol ring".

Fun social format we got here.

Even if RC doesn't ban Sol Ring they could make a list of cards that are little too strong and you should discuss with your playgroup before playing them. Like they did with uncards last December.


Your experience is online, I see. A social format is not best experienced this way. There is no social pressure to conform or respect randos you’ll never exchange a word or make eye contact with. It’s like playing in an LGS, except you don’t see them next week and have to face the consequences. I sympathize that you may not have a choice, but you need to accept that playing EDH online is a social format without the social parts.

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Antis wrote:
I'm seriously suspicious of any card that makes Doubling Season look fair and reasonable.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-18 1:50 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Can you save yourself from an alpha strike with Sol Ring? How about casting it at EOT to swing into an empty board and win the game? Sol Ring just taps for mana. It's practically like playing a Waste.


Real answer: Everyone knows that Sol Ring is broken AF and it's been debated ad nauseam for years and years. There probably isn't a single argument you can make pro or con that the RC hasn't heard at this point. It's overall bad for the format (my opinion) but it is highly unlikely to be banned.


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