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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-15 10:32 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I didn't use that word until after i asked what you thought my argument was, and i didn't use it in reference to my personal opinion about bans/sol ring.

To be more clear, when i said 'with care, the ban list could be made objectively better', that was an aside, not in regards to Sol Ring but in general. I would concede that it was poorly worded if that's what you have issue with. It could have been better as and it was kind of just a raw statement thrown out there i wasn't vested in describing at the moment.

The statement wasn't specifically about Sol Ring, but for example, i think a Sol Ring ban would be more in line with their other bans and philosophies. I meant objectively (maybe incorrectly) as something like 'better for what i think they are trying to accomplish'.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-15 4:59 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sovarius wrote:
I didn't use that word until after i asked what you thought my argument was, and i didn't use it in reference to my personal opinion about bans/sol ring.

To be more clear, when i said 'with care, the ban list could be made objectively better', that was an aside, not in regards to Sol Ring but in general. I would concede that it was poorly worded if that's what you have issue with. It could have been better as and it was kind of just a raw statement thrown out there i wasn't vested in describing at the moment.
OK I get that it wasnt about Sol Ring, and I think we both agree the list could be improved from our own perspective. But thats how I was linking it to 'everyone's opinion', ie any discussion is someone's opinion. Its just that in the EDH ban list 5 opinions actually matter, but they are still opinions. That's why if my group thinks their opinions don't mesh with ours, we just change what we do. Them encouraging that interaction still does not register to me as a 'cop out' because there is no easy choice.

Quote:
The statement wasn't specifically about Sol Ring, but for example, i think a Sol Ring ban would be more in line with their other bans and philosophies. I meant objectively (maybe incorrectly) as something like 'better for what i think they are trying to accomplish'.
I see what you mean now, and like I stated I agree with that thought on Sol Ring in particular.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-29 4:45 am 

Joined: 2012-Nov-16 2:29 pm
Age: Wyvern
The RC should strongly consider banning Cyclonic Rift.

It's had its day in the sun. We got the memo. It's in every blue deck and if it isn't it should be. It unnecessarily extends games and creates boring turns where people are replaying their stuff while getting bashed. It's insane with the blue twister effects or Nicol Bolas/Black Myojin. At this point its a prerequisite of every game of Commander having to go through each blue player casting it at least once.

Old joke is old. Ban the sucker and move on.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-29 5:27 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Interesting. I usually see it played as an "oh shit I'm getting alpha striked" response or at EOT so they can untap and win the game.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-29 6:05 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
cryogen wrote:
Interesting. I usually see it played as an "oh shit I'm getting alpha striked" response or at EOT so they can untap and win the game.

Same here. I've not seen anyone try to mix it up with twister/discard effects. I mean.. makes sense if you really want to punish your opponents...

But I think I'd rather see that on the other side of the table than someone with Capsize and enough mana to keep recasting it over and over on their turns (combined with Seedborn Muse or something to do it each & every turn...)

And if you're really fed up with it being mixed with twister/discard effects - just concede when it happens. I recall playing a game where I cast timetwister and followed it up with a Plagiarize before the twister resolved... my opponent scooped (and I took that combo out of the deck 'cuz it wasn't fun.)


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-29 8:13 am 

Joined: 2012-Nov-16 2:29 pm
Age: Wyvern
YawgsAgenda510 wrote:
The RC should strongly consider banning Cyclonic Rift.

It's had its day in the sun. We got the memo. It's in every blue deck and if it isn't it should be. It unnecessarily extends games and creates boring turns where people are replaying their stuff while getting bashed. It's insane with the blue twister effects or Nicol Bolas/Black Myojin. At this point its a prerequisite of every game of Commander having to go through each blue player casting it at least once.

Old joke is old. Ban the sucker and move on.


Not to shit on the previous replies from the peanut gallery, but a response from someone who's opinion on the subject actually matters, like an RC member, would be very much appreciated.

All the best.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-29 8:50 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
YawgsAgenda510 wrote:
Not to shit on the previous replies from the peanut gallery, but a response from someone who's opinion on the subject actually matters, like an RC member, would be very much appreciated.

Either you're new around here, or a MASSIVE tool, but that attitude isn't going to get you anywhere, least of all with the RC members, whose opinions more often line up with established and respected members of the community here like cryogen and Carthain.

Pull your head in. The RC has talked about Cyclonic Rift in the past, and if they didn't ban it then they're almost certainly not going to ban it now.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-29 8:51 am 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
YawgsAgenda510 wrote:

Not to shit on the previous replies from the peanut gallery, but a response from someone who's opinion on the subject actually matters, like an RC member, would be very much appreciated.

All the best.


Image

It's like this guy has been lucky enough to dodge Wash Out, Capsize, Temporal Fissure, Words of Wind and Tidespout Tyrant for as long as he's played EDH- almost as though he doesn't get what cards Rift gets the nod over, and what kind of gamestates they create.. Almost like a Twilight Zone parody.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-29 11:22 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Ah cyclonic rift, it's been a few months since we've had this discussion.

I like rift, I like that you can follow up with a wheel so that it works out more like a giant wrath than a mass bounce, I like that it has flexibility and that if you aren't clever about how you use it then you can definitely cast it at the wrong time. I also like the fact that it's not an unbeatable play, that you can work around it in the same way you work around players with wrath effects.

The biggest problem I have been seeing lately is a lack of good politics. Who you are working with/against should be constantly shifting. If someone resolves EOT rift and doesn't win, they are now the archenemy, take them down a few pegs. Then once the game levels out again you refocus.

Skills in shifting threat assessment seem to be seriously lacking these days. I have a player quit out of a game because after they resolved elspeth sun's champion and tamiyo the moon sage on successive turns and the other players turned on him. We broke his stuff and then he quit because we were "obviously teaming up on him" and he "couldn't fight both of you" oblivious to the fact that now that the power dynamic had changed the ad hoc alliance we had was about to dissolve and he would have a chance to rebuild.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-29 3:09 pm 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
specter404 wrote:
If someone resolves EOT rift


Before I say this, I agree with your point for the most part- this is a tangent.

What always gets me about this discussion is the "EOT Rift" argument. EOT Overloaded Rift is a trash play like 95% of the time, for the same reasons that against tuned decks, lugging out on Counterspells puts you into an insanely losing position. The day RTR arrived in our LGS, I pulled a set foil Rift that the group of people I was playing EDH with at the time and I referred to as "The Poor Man's Washout" because in EDH, these sort of doomsday instants are so obvious that just bludgeoning the game with them and stalling out your turns by not using 7 entire mana is a suicide pact. The odd fascination with Leyline of Anticipation, and Vedalken Orrery similarly butters my biscuit; since your deck should actively have a real plan with it, or pitch it.

To illustrate the point- you only need to take a cursory glance at the sort of boardstate you need to possess for an EOT OL Rift to begin with- 7 unused mana, and in order to make it an effective play, you must be able to eliminate the player who stands to gain the most from getting to reuse ETB/Cast Triggers or other such value (this is often, the hardest player to immediately eliminate.) This means that you often held back the majority of your manapool and didn't make a play for the turn, and to get into this position almost always means that you built up a threatening boardstate, and not enough was done to it in the entire round to make the play less threatening. What you're actually paying the extra mana for with Rift, is the ability to use it like something akin to Aetherspouts when you're significantly behind, and the ability to use it like Washout when you're ready to strike down a player. In BOTH of these situations, it's better to dump that 7 mana into the available sinks or use other disruption in lieu of overloading a Rift (where often, you can steal a win just by using it as Disperse at the right moment.)

Rifting right before your turn begins is Fancy Play Syndrome at it's finest- and I think the biggest reason that this isn't addressed; and also why it makes some players so salty, is that mass bounce punishes dumpy enchantments, creatures with death triggers, and synergistic do-nothings that cost 4-6 mana which certain Commander communities are notorious for playing far too many of in a single deck. If you don't often have something better to do with your mana, the deck might not be functional in the first place. Rift also benefits quite a bit from having the extra card's worth of information AND having more than 7 mana available (much easier during your turn.)

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-29 11:08 pm 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Not that I don't entirely disagree with your premise, but I think it's a harsh oversimplification. There are plenty of times when the board state doesn't make for "the correct play" to do a lot of things, or that you can't just attack into your opponents. So sometimes even if an EOT Rift won't win, it can still allow you to push ahead while setting your opponents back a turn or two. (And that is even in consideration to becoming the archenemy or setting up ETB effects.) I think the two biggest mistakes with the way the card is played are that people seem to forget that it is very effective as a Boomerang, and also people overload it because they can, not because they have a plan.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-30 1:30 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
cryogen wrote:
I think the two biggest mistakes with the way the card is played are that people seem to forget that it is very effective as a Boomerang, and also people overload it because they can, not because they have a plan.

To be fair, the person who started us talking about Rift again was explaining that he opponents tend to have a rather evil plan in mind when using it :)


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-30 4:09 am 

Joined: 2012-Nov-16 2:29 pm
Age: Wyvern
Viperion wrote:
YawgsAgenda510 wrote:
Not to shit on the previous replies from the peanut gallery, but a response from someone who's opinion on the subject actually matters, like an RC member, would be very much appreciated.

Either you're new around here, or a MASSIVE tool, but that attitude isn't going to get you anywhere, least of all with the RC members, whose opinions more often line up with established and respected members of the community here like cryogen and Carthain.

Pull your head in. The RC has talked about Cyclonic Rift in the past, and if they didn't ban it then they're almost certainly not going to ban it now.


Don't care what you think about me personally, and could give even less of damn about some kind of made up standing in a forum community you've made up in your mind to defend. Sad.

My message is the card ought to be up for serious +B consideration. I've posted here only because those with an opinion that matters may read said message and act in a meaningful way.

Mr Degradation wrote:
It's like this guy has been lucky enough to dodge Wash Out, Capsize, Temporal Fissure, Words of Wind and Tidespout Tyrant for as long as he's played EDH- almost as though he doesn't get what cards Rift gets the nod over, and what kind of gamestates they create.. Almost like a Twilight Zone parody.


Swing and a miss. I've played with and against all those cards and have likely been playing magic longer than you've been alive. You know what happens when you assume. Who's the horse's ass now?


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-30 4:14 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I think we can stop feeding the troll now. If anyone from the RC wants to reply to him or her, they can do so.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-30 4:19 am 

Joined: 2008-Jun-29 8:18 am
Age: Drake
YawgsAgenda510 wrote:
Viperion wrote:
YawgsAgenda510 wrote:
Not to shit on the previous replies from the peanut gallery, but a response from someone who's opinion on the subject actually matters, like an RC member, would be very much appreciated.

Either you're new around here, or a MASSIVE tool, but that attitude isn't going to get you anywhere, least of all with the RC members, whose opinions more often line up with established and respected members of the community here like cryogen and Carthain.

Pull your head in. The RC has talked about Cyclonic Rift in the past, and if they didn't ban it then they're almost certainly not going to ban it now.


Don't care what you think about me personally, and could give even less of damn about some kind of made up standing in a forum community you've made up in your mind to defend. Sad.

My message is the card ought to be up for serious +B consideration. I've posted here only because those with an opinion that matters may read said message and act in a meaningful way.

Mr Degradation wrote:
It's like this guy has been lucky enough to dodge Wash Out, Capsize, Temporal Fissure, Words of Wind and Tidespout Tyrant for as long as he's played EDH- almost as though he doesn't get what cards Rift gets the nod over, and what kind of gamestates they create.. Almost like a Twilight Zone parody.


Swing and a miss. I've played with and against all those cards and have likely been playing magic longer than you've been alive. You know what happens when you assume. Who's the horse's ass now?


Still you.


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