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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-16 8:00 pm 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Dragon
OldVig wrote:
Does this change anything? Does it put it more firmly in the spotlight?
I like good cards so I don't think so.

How could it be any less in the spotlight? It's the ubiquitous card of the format, virtually emblematic.

I don't think that changes anything though.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-23 11:47 pm 

Joined: 2018-Oct-23 11:36 pm
Age: Egg
so, i have a question, which is the philosophy of commander?... too many people complaining about fast mana, but, its worst when you lose the game without play a land... i believe that ban flash is a must... my meta has become very sterile with flash and protean hulk (i don't care protean hulk). The experience to the new players is awful. In that way we kill the commander philosophy.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-24 12:48 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
medvet wrote:
so, i have a question, which is the philosophy of commander?... too many people complaining about fast mana, but, its worst when you lose the game without play a land... i believe that ban flash is a must... my meta has become very sterile with flash and protean hulk (i don't care protean hulk). The experience to the new players is awful. In that way we kill the commander philosophy.

Right ... so, don't play with that guy.

Should be pretty easy to get other people to agree. I mean, what's the point of shuffling up if you don't even get a turn. Or alternately, tell the guy "You win, now we're going to play for 2nd."

The benefit of flash/hulk (especially when it happens before players get a turn) is that you now know this person isn't playing for the same reason you are. Which is perfectly fine. It also means that this person, without coaching, will likely ruin the kinds of games you want (if you want a longer more interactive game.) So wouldn't you rather know earlier that this guy wrecks games?

As well -- Flash->Hulk into a winning combo in multiplayer requires a certain mindset to do -- this is the person who is in it to win. If that's not why you're playing commander (and it isn't the purpose behind it) then simply don't play with that person.

If Hulk and/or Flash were banned -- this person would just move on to the next good/resilient combo to win as fast as he can. This is a player problem. You want to use fencing foils and have a nice to look at, choreographed fencing duel. This guy showed up with a gun. The likelihood of him showing up with a fencing foil is minimal unless you sit him down and tell him (as a group works better) what kinds of things you want out of your commander games.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jan-21 8:18 am 

Joined: 2018-Apr-09 11:02 am
Age: Hatchling
I just want to provide a small update regarding Expropriate: Most players in our Commander group play it in their blue decks and it really is the most effective "I-win-button" that we have ever had.

Even Sylvan Primordial could be stolen/reanimated/etc which leads to interactive situations at least. And Prophet of Kruphix didn't do much without gas in your hand.

But you can always just play some ramp and cast Expropriate and in 99% of cases, you win in my group. We do not want to house ban a card because our playerbase is quite big and I find house bans irritating.

Nevertheless, I still think printing Expropriate was a mistake, the card is so grossly overpowered that most "SCD" threads just say stuff like "cast this and you win the game in most scenarios" >.<


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jan-21 8:42 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
What modes are players choosing? Time Warp + Blatant Thievery shouldn't necessarily win the game unless you're already in a good spot, and if you have good board state and cast a nine mana spell winning the game isn't unreasonable.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jan-21 9:52 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Mahtan wrote:
"cast this and you win the game in most scenarios" >.<


I think more than anything, the question is when are they casting it? If they are winning on turn 5, that is way different than turn 15. Regardless of how they are winning on t1-5 that isn't the norm and should have no effect on potential bannings.

If they are changing who the general is because they want blue for Expropriate, for example if The Gitrog Monster picks up U then that is a concern. If everybody is playing U because it is just a race to cast Expropriate that is another concern.

Reality is that a 9 mana spell should significantly affect the game. Why else would you pay that much?

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Shabbaman wrote:
The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jan-21 11:24 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Mahtan wrote:
We do not want to house ban a card because our playerbase is quite big and I find house bans irritating.

Could you expand on why you think house bans are "irritating"? It seems you don't want to take responsibility for removing the card, and would prefer to let the RC take any 'heat' for it. Am I way off?

The entire EDH group of players is quite a bit larger than your group, so why is making a change to that group more desirable?

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sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jan-21 3:28 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
MRHblue wrote:
Mahtan wrote:
We do not want to house ban a card because our playerbase is quite big and I find house bans irritating.

Could you expand on why you think house bans are "irritating"? It seems you don't want to take responsibility for removing the card, and would prefer to let the RC take any 'heat' for it. Am I way off?

The entire EDH group of players is quite a bit larger than your group, so why is making a change to that group more desirable?

You cannot force others to play by your rules. Having a large playerbase with dissenting opinions who are all encouraged by a reckless and lazy rules committee to "make up your own rules" results in people who seem to all agree "Yeah fuck Expropriate! We understand each other!" Then they sit down and one of them casts Child of Alara and blows up the board 4 times.

Everyone has different opinions and Mahtan is trying to describe there are too many people to say "I don't play with/against Expropriate". Then the people with Expropriate are like "oh okay, i'll find someone who will". Because you aren't likely to get them to change their decks on your whims. So you find someone who also hates that card (or more likely, just doesn't own it) and sit down to play. Then you stomp them with your ramp into Craterhoof deck and they're upset you would play such a braindead and easy win-button.

It just goes around and around. Everyone who thinks there are a couple cards that ought to be banned or unbanned are generally going to differ a little bit. It's not possible for everyone to agree to house rules when we are talking about the greater sphere of the LGS and not our home when we invite a few friends over.

Build your deck to house rules and you're just supposed to keep changing it when you play with certain people are your store? Or travel? Who wants all that bookkeeping? House rules are shite unless you play at home/run your own event. A lot of people don't have the luxury of so many local players that they can always find someone who won't play the cards they dislike.

This block of my opinion isn't about whether or not Expropriate should or should not be banned, just that house rules are not a holy silver bullet panacea for all ails. They are just a mess imo.


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