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 Post subject: Re: Oko, Thief of Fun
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-13 11:55 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
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Antis wrote:
This is just an opinion, but if a deck is literally turned off by having its commander Elked, to the point that it can't kill one planeswalker, I'd say that's a deckbuilding issue, not an Oko issue.


this was my sentiment as well. Adding that, they can kill the planeswalker OR sac thier general to something and recast. Elking something is sorcery speed and once per turn without shenanigans


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 Post subject: Re: Oko, Thief of Fun
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-14 4:28 am 

Joined: 2014-Apr-03 3:46 am
Age: Drake
Sid the Chicken wrote:
illuknisaa wrote:
Oh noes First Sliver got elked. Why wont somebody think of the slivers?

I say "good". Slivers deserve every bad thing coming for them. Especially First sliver.

I can't say I disagree, but remember that shit can happen to people that aren't running First Sliver.


So not only First Sliver gets the sads but also all the other stupid shit too?

That sounds amazing. I propose that we errata oko to read "oko can be your commander" and "oko partners with everything".


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 Post subject: Re: Oko, Thief of Fun
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-14 10:41 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Shoe wrote:
Antis wrote:
This is just an opinion, but if a deck is literally turned off by having its commander Elked, to the point that it can't kill one planeswalker, I'd say that's a deckbuilding issue, not an Oko issue.

Even in the First Sliver case, that's a 5C aggro deck for crying out loud. If there is a deck that really should be able to take out Oko, that's it. It's a singular anecdote that stinks of monumentally bad luck more than anything, I feel.


this was my sentiment as well. Adding that, they can kill the planeswalker OR sac thier general to something and recast. Elking something is sorcery speed and once per turn without shenanigans


I think you guys are missing the major points. Killing the planeswalker doesn't un-elk the creature, and i don't think for one second anyone implied "my commander is an elk, therefore i can't kill one planeswalker".

Saying you can just run sac outlets in your deck is such a horrible thing to describe as necessary (even if it works out) because you shouldn't have to. It's not poor deckbuilding to skip sac outlets in a deck that would otherwise not need it.

It's an anecdote but it's just meant to illustrate potential problems. It's permanent elking and and is enormous hamper on allowing a deck to just do what it's meant to do. Commanders are meant to be removed and recast (especially cascaders), they aren't really intended to be permanently nerfed.

What does being a 5c aggro deck have to do with anything? Who said it's aggro? Most slivers are 2/2s for 2 :)
Don't forget that someone with an annoying commander may be teamed up against by 1 or 2 others at the table who enjoy having it be an Elk all day.

The main way to deal with Oko turning your commander cervid is mostly likely on average to be several combats, plus you have to use your own removal on your own commander. It's likely due to the repeatable nature you'll receive combat assistance from the others who don't want elkommanders.

Really, in all, i doubt Oko is truly a problem worthy of a ban but these statements really feel like they're missing the point is all.


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 Post subject: Re: Oko, Thief of Fun
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-14 12:20 pm 
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Sovarius wrote:
i don't think for one second anyone implied "my commander is an elk, therefore i can't kill one planeswalker".


majikal wrote:
I just had a game where I turned someone's First Sliver into an Elk and watched their whole deck fall apart. He tried so hard to kill it and recast it, but nobody would block and he never recovered...he did nothing for the rest of the game.
Am I missing something here? From here it seems like that was literally the point of the anecdote. Guy got his commander Elked, proceeded to not be able to do anything for the rest of the game.

Also, I feel like we're talking past each other at this point. You're talking about me missing the "major points". What major points? I agree that getting your commander Elked sucks and that it's unfun to be turned off, but I'm also saying that if a deck is so critically dependent on its commander that this kind of thing shuts it down, I mean consistently shuts it down, then there is a problem with that deck's construction.

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 Post subject: Re: Oko, Thief of Fun
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-14 1:13 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sovarius wrote:
I think you guys are missing the major points. Killing the planeswalker doesn't un-elk the creature, and i don't think for one second anyone implied "my commander is an elk, therefore i can't kill one planeswalker".
No, but creatures die constantly. The elk will die

Quote:
Saying you can just run sac outlets in your deck is such a horrible thing to describe as necessary (even if it works out) because you shouldn't have to. It's not poor deckbuilding to skip sac outlets in a deck that would otherwise not need it.
Yes, it is. Control magic exists, Enslave, other auras that deactivate it. You need to deal with that.

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 Post subject: Re: Oko, Thief of Fun
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-14 1:31 pm 
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20MillionTrees wrote:
Or maybe stop being a scrub and run some actual interaction or even *gasp* protection for your commander?

It's important to try to remain as constructive as possible. This comes off as needlessly aggressive towards someone who wasn't replying to you.

Sid the Chicken wrote:
Here's a link - I was having trouble finding the full twitch stream, but the clip in this article covers it pretty well. Melissa del Toro (a magic designer) saying they underestimated how powerful elking everything in sight was going to be. She puts the appropriate company spin on it... "We're monitoring the situation and are aware of the issues" type statement.

http://epicstream.com/news/JakeVyper/Wi ... m-With-Oko

Thanks for the link. It does seem she's fairly sidestepping the issue with her language in order to not make any decisive comments about it that may later have to be retracted, but at least didn't avoid the question altogether. The playtesting WOTC does is bound to miss problematic things from time to time, but it does seem this one was rather on the obvious side.

Overall I haven't seen Oko in serious action yet, so I couldn't say one way or the other for certain what to do with it. It doesn't seem like it's currently a problem at least in the sense of it taking over metas like Titan or Primordial did, but I didn't run into Prophet of Kruphix more than once or twice before it got banned. Which is why I'm not the best to judge on that front.

It seems exceptionally powerful though.

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 Post subject: Re: Oko, Thief of Fun
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-14 4:47 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Antis wrote:
Sovarius wrote:
i don't think for one second anyone implied "my commander is an elk, therefore i can't kill one planeswalker".


majikal wrote:
He tried so hard to kill it and recast it
Am I missing something here? From here it seems like that was literally the point of the anecdote. Guy got his commander Elked, proceeded to not be able to do anything for the rest of the game.


I think you are missing that "it" doesn't refer to Oko, but to the commander. Majikal's story wasn't about the Sliver player not killing Oko, but the Sliver player not being able to nuke their own commander. You said "if a deck is literally turned off by having its commander Elked, to the point that it can't kill one planeswalker, I'd say that's a deckbuilding issue" but the issue in the OP was only about the commander, and never about the ability to kill Oko.

The rest i don't have strong opinions about, i don't think Oko seems too broken but i don't think not being able to answer Oko means your decks is constructed poorly. Elking is permanent, you can say "play removal because you should expect to interact, sometimes what you need to interact with is Darksteel Mutation if you like your commander" - yes, if your colors interact with enchantments that null your commander and your deck focuses on your commander, then yeah you need to step up and be ready. Your deck is not bad because "You should play something that kills your own commander so you can recast it". That makes Oko an enormous enormous repeatable tempo play. He's not unbeatable though.

MRHblue wrote:
No, but creatures die constantly. The elk will die

Except when it doesn't. I don't feel strongly about arguing if creatures will die, i don't think i was implying that they don't. If your deck runs removal, and virtually every deck should i would agree, then you can kill the elk eventually. Relying on others to do your work for you seems dubious, though.

MRHblue wrote:
Sova wrote:
Saying you can just run sac outlets in your deck is such a horrible thing to describe as necessary (even if it works out) because you shouldn't have to. It's not poor deckbuilding to skip sac outlets in a deck that would otherwise not need it.
Yes, it is. Control magic exists, Enslave, other auras that deactivate it. You need to deal with that.

I'm not saying they aren't good or that there isn't a reason to run them. I just don't think that's bad deck design not to. Those are all also answered by normal removal too so they're hardly necessary. They're a lot better in colors that don't have other options, or especially reanimator decks so your stuff isn't trapped in exile, etc. For sure. They're also off theme for a lot of decks and i don't really blame people who want to have a cohesive theme, whatever it may mean to them. I wouldn't put a Phyrexian Altar in a casual bant deck for example.


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 Post subject: Re: Oko, Thief of Fun
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-14 6:31 pm 
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Sovarius wrote:
I think you are missing that "it" doesn't refer to Oko, but to the commander. Majikal's story wasn't about the Sliver player not killing Oko, but the Sliver player not being able to nuke their own commander. You said "if a deck is literally turned off by having its commander Elked, to the point that it can't kill one planeswalker, I'd say that's a deckbuilding issue" but the issue in the OP was only about the commander, and never about the ability to kill Oko.
The thread is named after Oko. Majikal is conveying his feelings about the card. That's why I keep talking about Oko specifically. I thought everyone else was, too.

I guess what I'm struggling with is that I've lost sight of what your angle is anymore. What are you arguing for, what are you trying to prove? If we're not talking about Oko, what ARE we talking about?

I apologize if I sound obtuse or disrespectful, I might genuinely be having a slow moment here ^_^

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In my 20's I was a Johnny.
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 Post subject: Re: Oko, Thief of Fun
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-15 2:29 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
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Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
My first thought was, "So what? -1 to get rid of something seems ok"

Except its a +1 ability. Maybe the play testers were all playing it as a -1 and never noticed how great it would be?

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 Post subject: Re: Oko, Thief of Fun
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-15 3:46 am 

Joined: 2019-Jul-18 7:14 am
Age: Drake
niheloim wrote:
My first thought was, "So what? -1 to get rid of something seems ok"

Except its a +1 ability. Maybe the play testers were all playing it as a -1 and never noticed how great it would be?


First, I have not played with or against this card. I hope I never do.

I don't think this is fair. I know snapcaster mage had miscommunication issues so it isn't outside the realm of possibility.

I don't think it is fair because I think if you gave those folks the opportunity to make a card with good game play, they would never turn things into elks. They were forced to do something that was bad for game play and they missed the mark. That is my speculation as opposed to them not knowing it was a plus or minus ability.


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 Post subject: Re: Oko, Thief of Fun
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-15 4:07 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Antis wrote:
I apologize if I sound obtuse or disrespectful

Neither! No worries :)

I'm disorganized and ramble so i might not be clear, but in as few as words as possible - the thread is about Oko i agree, but it seemed you and the other were focused on a deck's ability to kill Oko, but the original post wasn't about if the Sliver player could remove Oko or not. So what i read was:

OP: I elked someone's commander and since it's a permanent effect and they didn't happen to find a way to nuke their own commander, their deck failed to work as intended. This seems strong for edh.
Antis: If a deck can't kill Oko just because their commander was elked, that's a deckbuilding issue.
Me: The issue wasn't whether or not they could kill Oko.
Shoe: Well if your commander is elked you can kill Oko.
Me: Killing Oko doesn't un-elk your commander, that's not the point.

If my first post came off snobby or "yurrr dumbbb derr" - it wasn't meant to be, sorry if it did!

Most of the rest of the thread i agree with, especially with your comparison to Karakas as you estimate whether Oko could be banned or not. (Although one thing you miss about Karakas is the fact it is a land means there's otherwise no drawback to playing it and it's much harder to deal with without specific tools, which is another of the handful of reasons it's bad for the format).

I don't really think it's bannable but it feels like an all star staple to me. The removal ability is super flexible, even if sorcery, and it's repeatable, even if he can be attacked. I think it's nuts and i wouldn't consider not playing this in the average UG deck probably.


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 Post subject: Re: Oko, Thief of Fun
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-15 4:15 am 

Joined: 2013-Oct-09 7:02 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Isn't it easier to kill a 3/3 than an indestructible creature or enchantment? (comparing to Darksteel Mutation) This seems like a deck building issue to me of not playing creature removal.


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 Post subject: Re: Oko, Thief of Fun
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-15 4:35 am 
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Here’s the big difference between Oko and the various other Darksteel Mutation-type effects: with most other cases when you kill the affected commander, you’ve killed the debuff. Effectively a 1-1 in terms of CA.

You use a removal spell on an Elked commander, you’ve now spent a card without getting rid of any opposing card... and Oko is still on the field to neuter your commander next time you play it.

Combating Oko pretty much always requires either a superior boardstate or spending 2 sources of removal (one to get rid of Oko, one to get your commander back). Keep in mind that Oko can also target plenty of other stuff like your mana rocks or sac outlets, he has a high base loyalty, and neutering your stuff then after turn costs the Oko player literally nothing.

The comparison to Karakas is a pretty worthwhile one. They both are a repeatable resource-less source of removal that hits commanders particularly hard. The big difference between the two is that using Karakas as a removal spell effectively acts like a missed land drop each turn you do it, whereas Oko has no cost once in play, but in terms of deck building has stricter color requirements and takes up a spell slot. As Simic is debatably the most powerful/popular color pair and Oko’s status as a genetically useful removal spell, I think the problem of opportunity cost almost goes in the opposite direction.

I don’t know if Oko deserves to be banned, but it’s certainly a card that I have little to no desire to play or play against and if a year or so from now it ends up out of the format I will not complain.


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 Post subject: Re: Oko, Thief of Fun
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-15 4:44 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
MrCool wrote:
Isn't it easier to kill a 3/3 than an indestructible creature or enchantment? (comparing to Darksteel Mutation) This seems like a deck building issue to me of not playing creature removal.

Yea! With normal removal, like something that hits multiple permanent types or says "exile target creature". You don't have to kill your indestructible bug though, you can kill the non-indestructible enchantment that makes it a beetle, then you don't have to replay your commander. UK has anything else i could say pretty much covered.


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 Post subject: Re: Oko, Thief of Fun
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-15 3:00 pm 
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illuknisaa wrote:
So not only First Sliver gets the sads but also all the other stupid shit too?

Sure. What about the not stupid shit? Fair decks exist, and "hey, have an elk" is a pretty rude thing to do to them.

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