Login | Register


All times are UTC - 7 hours


It is currently 2019-Dec-11 11:15 pm




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 44 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Unban Iona, Reban Servent or Grindstone
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-10 9:46 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Nice Cards wrote:
What I meant by them not being WotC, is they could be more vocal and communicate their intentions for change to us better. How long has PE been in commander? We could have at least had notifications they were planning on axing it from their official lists, give time for community discussion and input...something I would not expect Wizards to do.

Where do you guys get your information from? I don't consider myself some kind of expert, but I certainly consume a lot of commander content on YouTube, never once have I heard or seen anyone say "Paradox Engine is going to be banned in commander." I've also not seen Iona in play except by our Kaalia player.

I'm not actually advocating for a rule reversal, but better communication and consideration to all playgroups and types of players in the future.

It's not the prerogative of the Rules Committee to ban cards. They don't approach this with the mindset of wanting to ban a card and then seeing how the community feels. Quite the opposite, they listen to what the community is saying, and then discuss those topics internally.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Iona, Reban Servent or Grindstone
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-10 9:50 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Willbender wrote:
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Personally I'd like PS re-banned. I don't think I'm going to see any cute/fun uses for it. I think I'm suddenly going to see more of Llawan, Cephalid Empress.

OK, and...? That's not a particularly powerful combo. There's much, much worse that can be done to the game.

If someone does this, it doesn't last long - someone will have a kill spell or bounce spell, or a win condition without creatures. The Cephalid player has what? Either a pillowfort/fog variant there, or is going to swing out for the win in mono blue?

Come on man. You're making an argument that "someone will just stop it" and ignoring the fact that the mono-blue player can and probably will protect their lock with some combination of countermagic and shroud/indestructibility granting effects. And if no one HAS an answer handy (this is way more possible than you're implying) you get to snooze your way through several turns. Plus this is the kind of thing someone will randomly drop on a non-cedh table and a bunch of decks that want to do things like have their commanders.

At any rate, my point wasn't specifically that Llawan is miserable with PS (she absolutely is) but that I'm expecting to see way more unpleasant/irritating uses of PS than things that make me say "Oh, that's cool". Granted, I could have made that point much more clearly the first time. But no one runs, say, Mycosynth Lattice because they like that it smooths out all the mana issues for them or gives them extra artifact count for their Karn tokens - they run it so they can cast overloaded Vandalblast and be jerks.

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Iona, Reban Servent or Grindstone
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-10 2:13 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
The difference: Vandalblast and most of the cards that interact poorly with Lattice are actually good cards. Llawan and Anarchy are not. People who want to win the game will run Vandalblast or Karn because they do powerful things even without Lattice, while people who want to win the game won't run color hate because it does squat without Servant.

And since you mention Lattice's beneficial aspects, Lattice actually does something even if you don't draw your combo. Servant doesn't. The only way Servant does anything on its own is if you have a general who synergizes with it, which is why I keep saying the majority of Servant uses will be to augment generals who can benefit from it.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Iona, Reban Servent or Grindstone
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-10 2:37 pm 

Joined: 2019-Jul-09 4:45 am
Age: Wyvern
After listening to the playing with power guys I think that the main reason why Iona is banned is because of the interaction with painter's servant where no one can play anymore spells. I think that it is better to have Painter's servant because even though though it does allow some degenerate things, it also facilitates more fun interactions than the mill combos and the blue commander discussed earlier, it allows more old color hate cards to be played and other interesting interactions and it would be more interesting to have that card in play than iona.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Iona, Reban Servent or Grindstone
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-10 2:57 pm 

Joined: 2010-Mar-10 1:31 pm
Age: Dragon
cryogen wrote:
So does that mean that the RC can't unban anything because it will immediately jump in price? Because how irresponsible would it be to unban Recurring Nightmare so we can play with it, only to find that this $20 card is now $100 dollars and we can't afford it.


oh like you don't already own a playset :P

_________________
onlainari wrote:
trappedslider wrote:
EDIT: so if i somehow manged to get down to 1 life,played Repay in Kind followed by Decree of Annihilation then it owuld be bad evil juju?

That's not how magic works. You can't equate cards and situations linearly like that!


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Iona, Reban Servent or Grindstone
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-11 2:59 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2012-May-11 11:02 am
Age: Drake
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
The difference: Vandalblast and most of the cards that interact poorly with Lattice are actually good cards. Llawan and Anarchy are not.


I won't hear this heinous slander against my darling baby boy Anarchy

tobeheard wrote:
After listening to the playing with power guys I think that the main reason why Iona is banned is because of the interaction with painter's servant where no one can play anymore spells. I think that it is better to have Painter's servant because even though though it does allow some degenerate things, it also facilitates more fun interactions than the mill combos and the blue commander discussed earlier, it allows more old color hate cards to be played and other interesting interactions and it would be more interesting to have that card in play than iona.


This is funny, because this is the reasoning that got PS banned and Iona left alone in the first place--it was reasoned that Iona was the more interesting card, and PS the more degenerate. Grindstone had also been banned for over a year at that point. It was a weird time.

I still think Iona, PS, and Grindstone should all be allowed to skip merrily into the sunset together and be legal, but I don't think that viewpoint has near enough traction.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Iona, Reban Servent or Grindstone
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-11 7:50 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I would agree that Servant's and Iona's banning status should be completely independent of each other, that the format can survive both being legal or both being banned. That being said, I have no love for Iona and will not complain about no longer having to deal with her.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Iona, Reban Servent or Grindstone
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-11 9:12 am 

Joined: 2019-Jul-09 4:45 am
Age: Wyvern
Agreed that they should both be legal. If someone is planning on reanimating it early every game than just be open that most level 6 decks cannot handle it and you shouldn't play it against them.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Iona, Reban Servent or Grindstone
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-22 1:16 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
tobeheard wrote:
Agreed that they should both be legal. If someone is planning on reanimating it early every game than just be open that most level 6 decks cannot handle it and you shouldn't play it against them.

See, the thing is, most people don't categorize decks by number and rate their threats accordingly. I don't even know what "level 6 deck" means.

Onion Souffle wrote:
I still think Iona, PS, and Grindstone should all be allowed to skip merrily into the sunset together and be legal, but I don't think that viewpoint has near enough traction.

I would say the tires on that proverbial car are completely bald. And probably greased for good measure and stuck in the mud. Going nowhere fast.

Uktabi_Kong wrote:
The difference:

Again, you're missing the point. Yes, it will probably show up most with generals that have color-related abilities. But that is most likely going to translate to annoying things like Llawan, and not "Oh look, I can give Tivadar of Thorn protection from everything". Also, when you say Llawan isn't a good card, you're ignoring the fact that she can be your general, and there are lots of ways to tutor an artifact creature in mono-blue. Kind of like running black Mikaeus as a general and putting Triskelion in the deck. It's a two card combo requiring you to find one card and have your general. And don't even try to start with "but Triskelion is a good card without Mike" because again - not the point.

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Iona, Reban Servent or Grindstone
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-22 2:43 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
The difference:

Again, you're missing the point. Yes, it will probably show up most with generals that have color-related abilities. But that is most likely going to translate to annoying things like Llawan, and not "Oh look, I can give Tivadar of Thorn protection from everything". Also, when you say Llawan isn't a good card, you're ignoring the fact that she can be your general, and there are lots of ways to tutor an artifact creature in mono-blue. Kind of like running black Mikaeus as a general and putting Triskelion in the deck. It's a two card combo requiring you to find one card and have your general. And don't even try to start with "but Triskelion is a good card without Mike" because again - not the point.

The comparison to Mike and Trike is nonsense for more reasons than just Trike being useful. To start, you got the relevant card comparison wrong. Mikaeus is one of the best creatures in the format with or without Trike and a fantastic general. Llawan is a bad card, a worse general, and with the help of PS it moves up to the position of "playable". Other important facts include that black far outstrips blue in terms of tutors, black is better at ramping or cheating it out, and most importantly Mike and Trike wins you the game on the spot.

The best case scenario for Llawan + PS is an asymmetrical Evacuation and preventing your opponents from casting creatures. Said soft lock contributes effectively nothing to its own defense (since roughly 95% of good removal is noncreature), creates zero card or mana advantage, and every removal spell in the game that even looks like a Putrefy or Lightning Bolt can end it. In terms of combos to build a deck around, that is just horrible. Whatever deck you build for that, I can guarantee that if you take out the two cards Llawan and PS and replace them with Teferi Pool or Venser + DEN or any of the Mind Over Matter combo generals, the deck becomes better. The only people who would build that deck and keep it around longer than 2 games are people who don't care about the rest of the table's fun AND are ok with constantly losing. In other words, people who don't actually exist.

And after Llawan and Teysa, the candidate for "worst command zone interaction with PS" drops off hard. You've got Crosis who is basically a discount Nicol Bolas, Savra who resembles Grave Pact slightly more than before... and that's it pretty much it. Heck, even with commanders like GAAIV and Oona that people tend to dislike (although I still don't get it with Oona) PS's interaction is with the fun part of them, not the annoying part.

There's zero foundation for saying that people will run Servant in Llawan and friends over Treva or 8.5 Tails and friends. Magic players aren't stupid, building a Servant Llawan deck is. It's not remotely powerful to even kiss the feet of cEDH, and it's obviously antisocial enough to never make it onto a casual table. Anyone who does make the mistake of building such a deck will look at their approximately 0% win rate and approximately 100% "get ganged up on by the table" rate and then rethink things pretty soon. And with the debatable exception of Teysa, all of PS's bad interactions are of that sort.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Iona, Reban Servent or Grindstone
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-22 4:19 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2019-Jul-16 9:21 pm
Age: Wyvern
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
The difference:

Again, you're missing the point. Yes, it will probably show up most with generals that have color-related abilities. But that is most likely going to translate to annoying things like Llawan, and not "Oh look, I can give Tivadar of Thorn protection from everything". Also, when you say Llawan isn't a good card, you're ignoring the fact that she can be your general, and there are lots of ways to tutor an artifact creature in mono-blue. Kind of like running black Mikaeus as a general and putting Triskelion in the deck. It's a two card combo requiring you to find one card and have your general. And don't even try to start with "but Triskelion is a good card without Mike" because again - not the point.

The comparison to Mike and Trike is nonsense for more reasons than just Trike being useful. To start, you got the relevant card comparison wrong. Mikaeus is one of the best creatures in the format with or without Trike and a fantastic general. Llawan is a bad card, a worse general, and with the help of PS it moves up to the position of "playable". Other important facts include that black far outstrips blue in terms of tutors, black is better at ramping or cheating it out, and most importantly Mike and Trike wins you the game on the spot.

The best case scenario for Llawan + PS is an asymmetrical Evacuation and preventing your opponents from casting creatures. Said soft lock contributes effectively nothing to its own defense (since roughly 95% of good removal is noncreature), creates zero card or mana advantage, and every removal spell in the game that even looks like a Putrefy or Lightning Bolt can end it. In terms of combos to build a deck around, that is just horrible. Whatever deck you build for that, I can guarantee that if you take out the two cards Llawan and PS and replace them with Teferi Pool or Venser + DEN or any of the Mind Over Matter combo generals, the deck becomes better. The only people who would build that deck and keep it around longer than 2 games are people who don't care about the rest of the table's fun AND are ok with constantly losing. In other words, people who don't actually exist.

And after Llawan and Teysa, the candidate for "worst command zone interaction with PS" drops off hard. You've got Crosis who is basically a discount Nicol Bolas, Savra who resembles Grave Pact slightly more than before... and that's it pretty much it. Heck, even with commanders like GAAIV and Oona that people tend to dislike (although I still don't get it with Oona) PS's interaction is with the fun part of them, not the annoying part.

There's zero foundation for saying that people will run Servant in Llawan and friends over Treva or 8.5 Tails and friends. Magic players aren't stupid, building a Servant Llawan deck is. It's not remotely powerful to even kiss the feet of cEDH, and it's obviously antisocial enough to never make it onto a casual table. Anyone who does make the mistake of building such a deck will look at their approximately 0% win rate and approximately 100% "get ganged up on by the table" rate and then rethink things pretty soon. And with the debatable exception of Teysa, all of PS's bad interactions are of that sort.


How to be a condescneding prick that nobody likes:
Step 1: Be Uktabi_Kong
Step 2: Type long walls of text in a meaningless attempt to show off how much of a know it all you can be


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Iona, Reban Servent or Grindstone
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-23 9:28 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
The comparison to Mike and Trike is nonsense for more reasons than just Trike being useful. To start, you got the relevant card comparison wrong. Mikaeus is one of the best creatures in the format with or without Trike and a fantastic general. Llawan is a bad card, a worse general, and with the help of PS it moves up to the position of "playable". Other important facts include that black far outstrips blue in terms of tutors, black is better at ramping or cheating it out, and most importantly Mike and Trike wins you the game on the spot.

You know it's pretty obvious we're never seeing eye-to-eye on this.

Uktabi_Kong wrote:
There's zero foundation for saying that people will run Servant in Llawan and friends over Treva or 8.5 Tails and friends.

Actually there is. As you say, Magic players aren't stupid. Painter's Servant isn't very strong in Treva. It is very strong in Teysa, who we will use as an example because you seem willing to admit that that's annoying. The Treva player will look at PS and say "Cute, but meh" and put it aside. The Teysa player will look at it and say "That's very powerful" and put it in. And there may not be players that both don't care about opponents' fun and don't like to win, but there are DEFINITELY players that don't care about opponents' fun, and that's all you really need, especially in non-insular environments like the LGS. Fun fact - since the unbanning of Protean Hulk, I have yet to see it hit a table and not immediately end the game. Because that's what happens. Mark my words, I will not see a single "friendly" use of Painter's Servant. Ever. You might be happy that you can have a Training Grounds in your 8.5 Tails deck, but meanwhile, all the random morons have a new way to be dicks.

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Iona, Reban Servent or Grindstone
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-23 2:35 pm 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Orlando, Florida
I wouldn't say that. When the demand drops down, I'm going to be jamming a copy into my Jaya Ballard deck.

I honestly think you're overthinking this, Sid. Painter's Servant was banned back in 2009 due to its interactions with Grindstone and Iona. The format has a much higher power level now than it did ten years ago. Now it's just another two card combo in a list of two card combos. Yeah, Teysa is irritating with it in play, but it's a card type that every color has the tools to deal with. Painter's Servamt and Teysa weren't an issue then, and I doubt they'll be an issue now.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Iona, Reban Servent or Grindstone
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-23 3:09 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Painter's Servant isn't very strong in Treva. It is very strong in Teysa, who we will use as an example because you seem willing to admit that that's annoying. The Treva player will look at PS and say "Cute, but meh" and put it aside. The Teysa player will look at it and say "That's very powerful" and put it in.
If gaining 20+ life every time Treva hits someone isn't strong, we are not playing the same game. And in the game you're apparently playing, Teysa on her own is just not strong enough to justify running with or without Servant.

Quote:
And there may not be players that both don't care about opponents' fun and don't like to win, but there are DEFINITELY players that don't care about opponents' fun, and that's all you really need
If they don't care about opponents' fun, why are they playing? What do they care about? The most common answer is winning, and in that case they won't play Servant combos. Even people who want to make their opponents miserable won't play Servant combos.

Quote:
Fun fact - since the unbanning of Protean Hulk, I have yet to see it hit a table and not immediately end the game.
When any combo that Servant is a part of is anywhere near as powerful as FlashHulk, you might have a point. Until then, this statement is about as relevant as pointing out that I'm not wearing a hat. But, for the record, I have seen such a thing, more often than the other. Because I play with people who have no interest in doing Hulk combos or anything like them.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 44 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot] and 21 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: