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 Post subject: Brudiclad and choices
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-03 10:03 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
If I use Brudiclad to make copies of a token Caged Sun, do the copies have the color choice made for the original token copy?

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 Post subject: Re: Brudiclad and choices
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-03 11:26 pm 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
No, you don't copy the choice. The choice for the copies is considered to be undefined. This leads to the other two abilities doing nothing: you get no additional +P/+T, and you get no additional mana. Sorry about that. Nice thinking though.

From the rules on copying, we don't copy the choice for the first ability:

Quote:
706.6. When copying a permanent, any choices that have been made for that permanent aren’t copied.


The second and third abilities are considered linked abilities that depend on that choice, so here's the rule for that:

Quote:
706.7a If an ability causes a player to “choose a [value]” and a second, linked ability refers to that choice, the second ability is the only ability that can refer to that choice. An object doesn’t “remember” that choice and use it for other abilities it may copy later. If an object copies an ability that refers to a choice, but either (a) doesn’t copy that ability’s linked ability or (b) does copy the linked ability but no choice is made for it, then the choice is considered to be “undefined.” If an ability refers to an undefined choice, that part of the ability won’t do anything.


But let's condense this down to the relevant bits:

Quote:
If an object copies an ability that refers to a choice, but [..] does copy the linked ability but no choice is made for it, then the choice is considered to be “undefined.” If an ability refers to an undefined choice, that part of the ability won’t do anything.


This would be different if the tokens were entering the battlefield as a copy of Caged Sun, for example by using Saheeli's Artistry's first mode, in which case you'd make a choice for each individual token as it entered the battlefield. However this is not what's happening here: they're already on the battlefield and they're being made into a copy of something else.

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 Post subject: Re: Brudiclad and choices
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-03 11:53 pm 

Joined: 2010-Dec-14 4:04 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Boston, MA
Would it work if for example you used Saheeli's Artistry to make token copies of Caged Sun and Diamond Mare, naming the same color, then used Brudiclad to turn the Mare token into a Caged Sun token?

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 Post subject: Re: Brudiclad and choices
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-04 1:11 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Coco wrote:
Would it work if for example you used Saheeli's Artistry to make token copies of Caged Sun and Diamond Mare, naming the same color

That part works.
Coco wrote:
then used Brudiclad to turn the Mare token into a Caged Sun token?

Unfortunately no. This is due to them being linked abilities. And you chose a colour for the Diamond Mare, not a colour for the Caged Sun. Despite them seeming to be the same, they are different abilities/text so they are treated as different ones.

Do you get it? I'm not sure how well I explained it.


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 Post subject: Re: Brudiclad and choices
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-04 2:30 am 

Joined: 2010-Dec-14 4:04 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Boston, MA
That's what I expected, thanks for confirming it.

_________________
Sygg, River Cutthroat: Ninjas, Rogues, Ophidians
Rosheen Meanderer: Hydras
Sapling of Colfenor: Toughness > Power
Riku: Pump Spells
Teneb: Life Manipulation
Kiki-Jiki: Big Red
Geth: Nim
Kodama of the North Tree: Hard Mode Voltron
Nin: Elementals
Sram: Jankstorm
Zur: Zombies
Rhys the Redeemed: Aura Voltron
Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh: Chandras
Ojutai, Soul of Winter: Tap Out Control
Alesha: Allies
Inalla: Treasures
Vial Smasher: Lava Axes
Atraxa: Counterless Keywords
Ludevic and Tymna: Curses


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 Post subject: Re: Brudiclad and choices
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-04 6:56 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
This was the ruling we came to - just without all the actual rules. It was more of a "I don't think it works like that." so I just did something else (namely killing the guy that said I couldn't do that). Good to know though.

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


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 Post subject: Re: Brudiclad and choices
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-04 7:09 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
so I just did something else (namely killing the guy that said I couldn't do that).
That seems fair :twisted:


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