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 Post subject: Hive mind and extra turns you lose cards
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-20 8:21 pm 

Joined: 2010-Mar-10 1:31 pm
Age: Dragon
so with Chance for Glory being printed, I was wondering how does it and the following: Final Fortune Last chance and Warrior's oath work with Hive Mind

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onlainari wrote:
trappedslider wrote:
EDIT: so if i somehow manged to get down to 1 life,played Repay in Kind followed by Decree of Annihilation then it owuld be bad evil juju?

That's not how magic works. You can't equate cards and situations linearly like that!


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 Post subject: Re: Hive mind and extra turns you lose cards
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-20 10:59 pm 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Dragon
For our convenience let's quote the relevant text that appears on all of these cards:
Quote:
Take an extra turn after this one. At the beginning of that turn’s end step, you lose the game.

Hive Mind's ruling:
Quote:
If a player casts an instant or sorcery spell, Hive Mind’s ability triggers and is put on the stack on top of that spell. Hive Mind’s ability will resolve first. When it does, it creates a number of copies of that spell equal to the number of players in the game minus one. First the player whose turn it is (or, if that’s the player who cast the original spell, the player to that player’s left) puts their copy on the stack, choosing new targets for it if they like. Then each other player in turn order does the same. The last copy put on the stack will be the first one that resolves. (Note that the very last thing to happen is that the original spell resolves.)

And also this rule:
Quote:
500.7. Some effects can give a player extra turns. They do this by adding the turns directly after the specified turn. If a player is given multiple extra turns, the extra turns are added one at a time. If multiple players are given extra turns, the extra turns are added one at a time, in APNAP order (see rule 101.4). The most recently created turn will be taken first.

(Note that at no stage in this scenario are multiple players given extra turns simultaneously, so we're not engaging that APNAP line. Instead each player is getting one extra turn, one player at a time.)

It's currently Alice's turn and the turn order is Alice → Bob → Charlie → Denise.

So:
  1. Alice casts Final Fortune.
  2. Hive Mind's triggered ability goes on the stack.
    The stack is now: Alice's spell (bottom), Hive Mind's triggered ability (top).
  3. Nobody does anything in response. Hive Mind's triggered ability resolves. Bob creates a copy of Final Fortune and puts it on the top of the stack, then Charlie does the same, then Denise does the same.
    The stack is now: Alice's original spell (bottom), Bob's copy, Charlie's copy, Denise's copy (top).
  4. Players get priority to cast more spells or activate abilities. Nobody has anything to do so everyone starts passing to let the stack resolve.
  5. Denise's copy resolves first. Denise gets an extra turn after this one. The turn order is now Alice → Denise (extra) → Bob → Charlie → Denise.
  6. Charlie's copy resolves. Charlie gets an extra turn after this one. The turn order is now Alice → Charlie (extra)Denise (extra) → Bob → Charlie → Denise.
  7. Bob's copy resolves. Bob gets an extra turn after this one. The turn order is now Alice → Bob (extra)Charlie (extra)Denise (extra) → Bob → Charlie → Denise.
  8. Alice's spell resolves. Alice gets an extra turn after this one. The turn order is now Alice → Alice (extra)Bob (extra)Charlie (extra)Denise (extra) → Bob → Charlie → Denise.

Each player in the regular turn order, starting with Alice, takes their extra turn and loses at the end of their turn. Assuming nobody can win during their turn, Alice will lose first. Denise will win at the end of Charlie's turn on account of being the last player left.

If Alice uses a Sundial of the Infinite on their extra turn, they exit their extra turn early. The triggered ability that would make them lose will now never resolve. Each other player loses in turn order. :)

I dub this combo The Game Ender™.

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Decks: Chaos colored dragons, Mathas, the Instigator (politics and mayhem).
Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


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 Post subject: Re: Hive mind and extra turns you lose cards
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-20 11:18 pm 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
spacemonaut wrote:
Each other player loses in turn order. :)

Unless they can win on their next turn! :D


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 Post subject: Re: Hive mind and extra turns you lose cards
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-21 12:09 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Dragon
Carthain wrote:
spacemonaut wrote:
Each other player loses in turn order. :)

Unless they can win on their next turn! :D

You're right! Best of luck to them. Maybe their impending victory is why Alice is restoring to this measure. :twisted:

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Decks: Chaos colored dragons, Mathas, the Instigator (politics and mayhem).
Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


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 Post subject: Re: Hive mind and extra turns you lose cards
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-21 2:01 am 

Joined: 2010-Mar-10 1:31 pm
Age: Dragon
This is what my local L3 said at least in regards to Chance for Glory and Hivemind

No. You cast the spell and Hive Mind triggers. Trigger resolves and creates copies. Copies resolve in turn order. Then yours resolves last.

Extra turns are taken "newest first", so your Glory turn comes up next.

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onlainari wrote:
trappedslider wrote:
EDIT: so if i somehow manged to get down to 1 life,played Repay in Kind followed by Decree of Annihilation then it owuld be bad evil juju?

That's not how magic works. You can't equate cards and situations linearly like that!


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 Post subject: Re: Hive mind and extra turns you lose cards
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-21 2:05 am 

Joined: 2010-Mar-10 1:31 pm
Age: Dragon
spacemonaut wrote:
If Alice uses a Sundial of the Infinite on their extra turn, they exit their extra turn early. The triggered ability that would make them lose will now never resolve. Each other player loses in turn order. :)

I dub this combo The Game Ender™.


OMG....rushes off to buy the needed cards because he is an evil person

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onlainari wrote:
trappedslider wrote:
EDIT: so if i somehow manged to get down to 1 life,played Repay in Kind followed by Decree of Annihilation then it owuld be bad evil juju?

That's not how magic works. You can't equate cards and situations linearly like that!


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 Post subject: Re: Hive mind and extra turns you lose cards
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-21 2:20 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
trappedslider wrote:
OMG....rushes off to buy the needed cards because he is an evil person

The problem I see, and up to each person as to just how much of a problem this is, is that to put that combo in your deck, you need cards that aren't likely to do much for you without all the other cards in hand/place. :)

Running dead cards (for me) is a sure way to make sure I lose. But on the other hand, if your deck is known for losing (when you play that deck) perhaps they won't pick on you and you can have more time to set up this silly combo :D


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 Post subject: Re: Hive mind and extra turns you lose cards
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-21 3:33 am 

Joined: 2010-Mar-10 1:31 pm
Age: Dragon
Carthain wrote:
trappedslider wrote:
OMG....rushes off to buy the needed cards because he is an evil person

The problem I see, and up to each person as to just how much of a problem this is, is that to put that combo in your deck, you need cards that aren't likely to do much for you without all the other cards in hand/place. :)

Running dead cards (for me) is a sure way to make sure I lose. But on the other hand, if your deck is known for losing (when you play that deck) perhaps they won't pick on you and you can have more time to set up this silly combo :D


I only have or two decks that tend to be threats right off the bat but i asked about the combo in my FB group so i may have tipped my hand...lol

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onlainari wrote:
trappedslider wrote:
EDIT: so if i somehow manged to get down to 1 life,played Repay in Kind followed by Decree of Annihilation then it owuld be bad evil juju?

That's not how magic works. You can't equate cards and situations linearly like that!


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 Post subject: Re: Hive mind and extra turns you lose cards
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-21 4:46 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Carthain wrote:
trappedslider wrote:
OMG....rushes off to buy the needed cards because he is an evil person

The problem I see, and up to each person as to just how much of a problem this is, is that to put that combo in your deck, you need cards that aren't likely to do much for you without all the other cards in hand/place. :)

Running dead cards (for me) is a sure way to make sure I lose. But on the other hand, if your deck is known for losing (when you play that deck) perhaps they won't pick on you and you can have more time to set up this silly combo :D

I think the real problem is that every single Hive Mind combo is funny precisely once.


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 Post subject: Re: Hive mind and extra turns you lose cards
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-22 3:27 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
cryogen wrote:
I think the real problem is that every single Hive Mind combo is funny precisely once.


Agreed. This routine has been around a long time - "Oh look, it's Hive Mind and Pacts.... yay...". It wasn't cool then, and it's not cool now.

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 Post subject: Re: Hive mind and extra turns you lose cards
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-22 2:26 pm 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
trappedslider wrote:
This is what my local L3 said


Not to say that this person might not be- but usually judges don't tend to rank-drop. As in, it's usually easy to identify L3s because they're either Head Judge of 500+ head events, or the person who the other judges huddle around for coordination. Regional judges tend to be the ones that people make the most outlandish claims about too. So the excess detail of trying to qualify this as anything more than "a local judge"- makes it hard to take at face value.

As far as my hot take on it goes, Hive Mind triggers stack up in APNAP order, and resolve in reverse APNAP like any other triggers, and as part of their resolution; create the copy, which then resolves if there's nothing around it- meaning the person who casts Final Fortune takes that extra turn first- and thus loses the game first.

Generally speaking though, Hive Mind combos tend to get busted up more frequently than Laboratory Maniac combos (which get nailed constantly-) so even in it's appropriate color combination, it's generally not worth it- where a well timed Final Fortune is often enough to just run away with the game by simply dealing enough damage to all opponents. If you're going to build for a combo in this way, Swarm Intelligence will generally provide more work than Hive Mind (to be fair though, I generally hold SI in contempt for being so exquisitely do-nothing anyways.) If this all sounds pretty weird, try playtesting with a Narset turns deck in your gauntlet (it becomes apparent how often the deck just kills itself on accident after you play enough of the nightmare games to work out the anxiety of what it "can do")

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 Post subject: Re: Hive mind and extra turns you lose cards
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-23 1:23 pm 

Joined: 2010-Mar-10 1:31 pm
Age: Dragon
Mr Degradation wrote:
trappedslider wrote:
This is what my local L3 said


Not to say that this person might not be- but usually judges don't tend to rank-drop. As in, it's usually easy to identify L3s because they're either Head Judge of 500+ head events, or the person who the other judges huddle around for coordination. Regional judges tend to be the ones that people make the most outlandish claims about too. So the excess detail of trying to qualify this as anything more than "a local judge"- makes it hard to take at face value.


It's habit to drop his judge rank ( which I think about more L2 than L3) when we discuss rules,along with explaining who he is when we have a new guy in our group. "Then there's X" "Wjpse that?" "He's a L2 judge" followed by other stuff about him.

We typically defer to him when it comes to rules questions followed by others.

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onlainari wrote:
trappedslider wrote:
EDIT: so if i somehow manged to get down to 1 life,played Repay in Kind followed by Decree of Annihilation then it owuld be bad evil juju?

That's not how magic works. You can't equate cards and situations linearly like that!


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 Post subject: Re: Hive mind and extra turns you lose cards
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-28 7:51 am 

Joined: 2015-Dec-22 4:41 am
Age: Drake
Sid the Chicken wrote:
cryogen wrote:
I think the real problem is that every single Hive Mind combo is funny precisely once.


Agreed. This routine has been around a long time - "Oh look, it's Hive Mind and Pacts.... yay...". It wasn't cool then, and it's not cool now.

At least then the game ends right away. In my opinion, it's MUCH more fun to play Epic spells like Endless Swarm. The best part about this is that even if your opponents kill you, the epic effect doesn't simply go away. Your opponents will engage in a spell-less snake battle resulting in endless amounts of fun and entertainment that never ever gets old.

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