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 Post subject: Dark Salvation and Elesh Norn
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-25 2:38 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-25 1:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
This came up last night: your opponent controls an Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, and I cast Dark Salvation with a big enough X to destroy it. What happens to my zombies, do they still die afterwards? Can I even destroy Elesh Norn with Dark Salvation?

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Name: Forged in Stone
General: Nahiri, the Lithomancer
Archetype: Aggro

Name: Night of the Ninja
General: Vela the Night-Clad
Archetype: Aggro-Control

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Salvation and Elesh Norn
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-25 4:31 am 

Joined: 2015-Dec-22 4:41 am
Age: Drake
They all die; both Elesh Norn and your 2/2 zombies die together. Whenever you're counting damage or toughness to determine if something dies, you always do it during state-based actions. State based actions apply only whenever you would receive priority and as a turn based action during the cleanup step but never in the middle of a resolving spell. By the time your spell fully resolves, every creature in your scenario will have 0 toughness and will all die simultaneously.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Salvation and Elesh Norn
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-25 6:24 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
The answer given is correct. Here's how it plays out.

Announce Dark Salvation for X=7 with target player (probably yourself) and target creature (Norn)

Priority goes around.

No responses, Salvation resolves.

You put 7 2/2 Zombie tokens into play, which are right now 0/0s. You also give Norn -7/-7. Salvation goes to the graveyard, and you would get priority now.

Before you get priority state based effects are checked. Everything with 0 toughness goes to the yard - all the tokens, and Norn.

Then state based actions are checked again (just in case!) and then you get priority.

It's worth understanding that slightly different card text can lead to a completely different outcome.

Let's pretend Dark Salvation had text:

"...then destroy up to one target creature with toughness X or less."

If it said that then you'd keep the tokens, because part of resolving the spell would be to destroy Norn. In that case Norn is gone before we check state based effects, and the tokens would stay on the battlefield.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Salvation and Elesh Norn
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-25 7:57 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Dragon
I second the explanations above. They're 100% spot on.

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Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Salvation and Elesh Norn
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-25 7:42 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-25 1:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Thanks everyone, that was very enlightening :)

_________________
Name: Forged in Stone
General: Nahiri, the Lithomancer
Archetype: Aggro

Name: Night of the Ninja
General: Vela the Night-Clad
Archetype: Aggro-Control

Name: Boros Legion
General: Aurelia, the Warleader
Archetype: Aggro

Name: Dragon Fire
General: Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
Archetype: Midrange


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Salvation and Elesh Norn
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-28 3:29 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Always remember, Lighting bolt doesn't kill creatures, state-based actions do.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Salvation and Elesh Norn
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-28 3:34 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Doom Bolt does, however, kill creatures.

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