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 Post subject: Creates a percieved high barrier to entry
AgePosted: 2018-Jun-05 7:36 am 

Joined: 2018-Jun-05 7:29 am
Age: Egg
So when is it possible to consider to a add cards to the list. Certain decks, like 3+ colors run less effiecently without duel lands seeing the spikes over the past year on these cards seems that the rules committee should consider a ban update. There's also cards like Tabernacle and mishras workshop that seem fit to ban also. Prices are starting to become a tad bit crazy this past year and I don't believe it's going to hit a ceiling. What is everybody's thoughts.


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 Post subject: Re: Creates a percieved high barrier to entry
AgePosted: 2018-Jun-05 10:24 am 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I'm curious if you have read the format philosophy document that's posted at the top of rules announcements. I think you'll find a lot of your question answered there.


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 Post subject: Re: Creates a percieved high barrier to entry
AgePosted: 2018-Jun-05 2:49 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
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Furthermore this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18840
and this one:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18776

Both of which exist on page one of topics in this section.

I dont want to harsh your jive or anything, but it is worth checking a least the first page for similar threads before posting, more often than not your topic has been discussed before and the first response from many community members will be "here we go again".

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 Post subject: Re: Creates a percieved high barrier to entry
AgePosted: 2018-Jun-06 1:42 am 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
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 Post subject: Re: Creates a percieved high barrier to entry
AgePosted: 2018-Jun-06 2:51 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
papa_funk wrote:
I'm curious if you have read the format philosophy document that's posted at the top of rules announcements. I think you'll find a lot of your question answered there.

Ya know, if you just removed PBtE altogether you would stop these questions. Just saying. :D


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 Post subject: Not needed, but given
AgePosted: 2018-Jun-07 3:28 am 

Joined: 2017-Jun-13 4:56 am
Age: Drake
I think the current responses and links sufficiently answer Sweendeezy's question, unless they have more questions.

But I had a thought I want to share, so de-railing away!

The core philosophy of Commander is "Fun group play with casual viability", with the sub-agenda "Be a Format where you can play your favorite cards/synergies forever". A lot of 1v1 formats let you play those old decks, but bringing a souped-up version of your now-rotated standard deck to modern or legacy usually gets you a bunch of crushing defeats. But now you can play your favorite old cards for fun with friends!

Looking at cards like The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, or Mishra's Workshop, or even original duels this happens too. Sure the card is expensive now, but you already own one, so you want to play it. Play it in commander!

You can argue those cards see play in older formats. That's true! Does someone who owns a Tabernacle want to buy the other three a Vintage Prison deck wants? Do they want to complete their full set of 4 Duals for 4 Fetches so they can play the ones they already have? A singleton card that sits in your collection unplayable is frustrating.

Banning purely because not EVERYONE can afford/is willing to pay for a card, or there aren't enough copies for everyone, means we'd have to ban looooots of cards. I don't usually spend more than $3 on any single card, I prefer to spend less than $0.50, so I never bought a Cyclonic Rift and I don't run it. I run Immortal Sun because I opened one, I run Greater Good because I opened one, etc.

Taking the gameplay balance angle, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale gets blown up by a pile of $0.10-$0.20 land destruction spells. It dies to an ocean of "destory permanant" effects. It's not going to warp the local meta any more than a Saheeli-Felidar combo deck, or a flash-Felidar-Sovereign deck. The fact that not everyone can have one isn't gamebreaking.

If you look at the banlist it's mostly $0.50 cards that are stupidly unfun or persistently too game warping. Prophet of Kruphix was $0.75 when it was legal, and it gave exactly until your endstep before you had countermagic up and could flash in your creatures. Worldfire is only good in Suspend decks, and most of the people who would want it would just hit then fail to end the game for 6 turns of dead draws. Biorhythm and Coalition Victory are just kind of annoying, as they heavily enable one-turn full table kills with no combo interaction other than counterspells, and people HATE counterspells.

If they unbanned Moxes today, what would that do? Every deck would want them sure, they'd be like five extra artifact land-drops for free. They'd be annoying the way 5 sol rings would but it wouldn't ruin the format. There's debate over if Black Lotus would go in every deck. But those cards COULD go in every deck, and they WOULD increase the deck's power level, so they are more reasonably banned for ubiquity than price point. If the moxes were $5.00 a piece they'd still probably be banned.

So, in summary, I think that the Commander Rule Committee has never actually banned a card for pricepoint yet. They just have that on the list as a factor in case it ever comes up.

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 Post subject: Re: Not needed, but given
AgePosted: 2018-Jun-07 3:53 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-30 12:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Evilkritter wrote:
So, in summary, I think that the Commander Rule Committee has never actually banned a card for pricepoint yet. They just have that on the list as a factor in case it ever comes up.
I basically agree with the gist of everything you just said; just want to clarify that I am pretty sure the RC has said the "Barrier to entry" condition WAS a factor in some of the early bans, like the Moxes, Black Lotus, etc, but has never been the SOLE reason or the MAIN reason. And, I believe, they have said that it will never be a sole factor and, in modern times, is even less of a consideration now than it was back then.

But overall I think you have the right idea - there's no reason to ban, let's say, ABUR duals because if you were to ask the question "Can a deck without the o.g. duals compete with a deck with them?", the answer is clearly "yes" and so duals are not something you just have to have. They're nice to have and your deck probably gets a tiny % edge if you run them but not having them is SO FAR from being a barrier to entry it's not even funny.

THIS is the mistake a lot of people make when talking about the BtE banlist factor - just because a card is a) old, b) expensive and c) powerful does not make it a must-have for EDH decks across the board. Sure it SUCKS that some old RL card that is janky and SHOULD be dirt cheap is now super hard to acquire but very few of those older cards are actually so good they are ESSENTIAL to any deck outside of high-tier cEDH decks.

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 Post subject: Re: Creates a percieved high barrier to entry
AgePosted: 2018-Jun-07 2:16 pm 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
cryogen wrote:
papa_funk wrote:
I'm curious if you have read the format philosophy document that's posted at the top of rules announcements. I think you'll find a lot of your question answered there.

Ya know, if you just removed PBtE altogether you would stop these questions. Just saying. :D


Sure. It'd be replaced with "Why'd you unban the moxes?"


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 Post subject: Re: Creates a percieved high barrier to entry
AgePosted: 2018-Jun-07 9:38 pm 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
papa_funk wrote:
cryogen wrote:
papa_funk wrote:
I'm curious if you have read the format philosophy document that's posted at the top of rules announcements. I think you'll find a lot of your question answered there.

Ya know, if you just removed PBtE altogether you would stop these questions. Just saying. :D


Sure. It'd be replaced with "Why'd you unban the moxes?"

That's when you retort with "don't you follow Reddit? We make all our decisions based on saltiness and financial gain. "


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 Post subject: Re: Creates a percieved high barrier to entry
AgePosted: 2018-Jun-08 5:58 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-02 5:25 am
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papa_funk wrote:
cryogen wrote:
papa_funk wrote:
I'm curious if you have read the format philosophy document that's posted at the top of rules announcements. I think you'll find a lot of your question answered there.

Ya know, if you just removed PBtE altogether you would stop these questions. Just saying. :D


Sure. It'd be replaced with "Why'd you unban the moxes?"


As long as you unban Recurring Nightmare that is fine by me.

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