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 Post subject: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-May-12 8:24 am 

Joined: 2009-Jul-02 4:25 pm
Age: Drake
I just played against a Godo, Bandit Warlord deck the other night, and I have to say, the interaction this commander has with Helm of the Host is... unfortunate.

If you are not already aware, Helm of the Host creates a hasty, non-legendary copy of whatever it is equipped to at the beginning of combat, so when equipped to a creature that grants extra combat phases, you get infinite attacks. Neat! Except that Godo tutors it straight into play and is your commander, so all you need to do is make 11 mana, cast your commander, and equip the helm.

There's not much else to say. Same game, every time. Cast exactly one spell that you start the game with, the end. Maybe you ramp into it, maybe not. Unfortunate.

I think the helm is a really cool card, but Godo probably needs to go. Thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-May-12 8:35 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Having not had a chance to play with any of the new cards from Dominaria yet, I can only speculate, but I doubt there is cause to worry. For one, we already have ways for red to get infinite combat steps, and for two we have a few generals that can go infinite with just one card.


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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-May-12 8:42 am 

Joined: 2009-Jul-02 4:25 pm
Age: Drake
The problem isn't the infinite combat or the single-other-card combo. Plenty of commanders can do both of those things. The problem is specifically that the commander itself tutors the other combo piece directly onto the battlefield and you can literally cast no other spells and end the game.


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 Post subject: Blanking on questionable comparisons right now.
AgePosted: 2018-May-12 8:54 am 

Joined: 2017-Jun-13 4:56 am
Age: Drake
6 cost monored commander that requires a 5 mana equip ability to activate at sorcery speed, a combo that is vulnerable to both Artifact and Creature removal, in a monored deck doesn't sound format breaking to me. It's not worth a ban.

It's comparable to any of the aura-token combos (Splintertwin I'm looking at you), or aggravated assault + sword of feast and famine.

If it dominates your playgroup (wins way more games than anybody else) even when people are ganging up on Godo then you can ask the player to take out the helm or please not go for the combo every game. I don't think it'll come to that though because monored tends to be weak and every color has instant speed answers to it.

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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-May-12 9:06 am 

Joined: 2009-Jul-02 4:25 pm
Age: Drake
It doesn't need to be format-breaking. It costs 2 mana more than Coalition Victory, has the same outcome (one spell, have the answer right now or game over) and is your commander, so you don't even need to work for it. That doesn't seem like much of a tradeoff. It doesn't need to dominate the meta to be an undesirable interaction.

The examples you gave are not your commander. You have to play Magic to achieve those combos.


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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-May-12 9:34 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Ok, then approach it from a different angle. In the absence of Helm, do you think Godo should be banned? In the absence of Godo, do you think helm should be banned?


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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-May-12 9:42 am 

Joined: 2009-Jul-02 4:25 pm
Age: Drake
That is irrelevant. Both already exist. That genie can't be put back into the bottle. If the answer was "just don't put it in your deck" then Biorhythm and Coalition Victory wouldn't be banned. This is the same thing, only even less exciting.

I also want to be clear that I think it might even be fine if Godo weren't able to be the commander, but starting with "I win" in the Command Zone is something that probably shouldn't exist.


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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-May-13 12:32 am 
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Joined: 2013-Nov-04 2:12 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Northamptonshire, UK
Frankly, I think it's pretty awesome that a mono-Red Commander can have such a win-con in the Command Zone. IIRC, mono-Red is one of the lowest tier colour combinations in Commander, so giving them a tool like this sounds fun and exciting, both to play with and against (though I'm unlikely to do the former as I currently own neither card).

Considering that the whole scheme can be thwarted by a single 3/4 blocker, by Instant-speed creature and/or artifact removal or bounce, or by a number of specific cards including Leyline of Singularity, Crafty Cutpurse, Gather Specimens, and Hallowed Moonlight, I don't think that this is anything to worry too much about.

Is it likely to steal a win out of seemingly nowhere? Sure, especially in lower experience groups (though doing it all on a single turn would be tricky, as there are no real ramp options to get to 11 mana in mono-Red outside of mana rocks). But once you've seen it play out, you're never going to be surprised by it again: if that deck rolls up to your gaming table again, you should be prepared to deal with it.

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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-May-13 4:47 am 

Joined: 2009-Jul-02 4:25 pm
Age: Drake
I don't think you understand how it works if you think a blocker stops it.


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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-May-13 5:00 am 

Joined: 2011-Feb-15 7:09 am
Age: Drake
I think it's cool, red really needs some love in EDH. I recently was introduced to the interaction of Godo with Blade of Selves and the Kaldra pieces with ashnod's altar out. Infinite mana, just add a wincon:)


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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-May-13 5:03 am 

Joined: 2013-Jun-23 10:18 am
Age: Elder Dragon
majikal wrote:
...Godo tutors it straight into play and is your commander, so all you need to do is make 11 mana, cast your commander, and equip the helm.


I think I'm OK with this kind of "all you need to do."

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Current Commanders: 6/32.

Daretti, Scrap Savant (Red Artefacts).
Prime Speaker Zegana (Simic Voltron).
Rubinia Soulsinger (Bant Polymorphs).
Kess, Dissident Mage (Grixis Treasure).
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper (Jund Apostles).
Tariel, Reckoner of Souls (Mardu Judo).


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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-May-13 5:35 am 

Joined: 2009-Jul-02 4:25 pm
Age: Drake
Cool, let's unban Coalition Victory then.


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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-May-13 5:41 am 

Joined: 2013-Jun-23 10:18 am
Age: Elder Dragon
majikal wrote:
Cool, let's unban Coalition Victory then.


Nope. One card that ends the game in virtually every deck of its colour combination is not the same as one card which ends the game in conjunction with one specific commander. Compare like with like.

_________________
Current Commanders: 6/32.

Daretti, Scrap Savant (Red Artefacts).
Prime Speaker Zegana (Simic Voltron).
Rubinia Soulsinger (Bant Polymorphs).
Kess, Dissident Mage (Grixis Treasure).
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper (Jund Apostles).
Tariel, Reckoner of Souls (Mardu Judo).


Last edited by Swmystery on 2018-May-13 6:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Explanations
AgePosted: 2018-May-13 5:42 am 

Joined: 2017-Jun-13 4:56 am
Age: Drake
To those unclear on how the combo works, it is a bit tricky;
Cast Godo
Godo ETB puts helm into play
Pay 5 to equip
Go to combat, beginning of combat make a haste 3/3 copy
Copy attacks causing another combat step
It does not matter what happens to the copy
Next combat Helm makes another 3/3, repeat forever

Godo does not need to attack

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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-May-13 5:43 am 

Joined: 2009-Jul-02 4:25 pm
Age: Drake
You're right. It's harder to end the game with Coalition Victory.


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