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 Post subject: I think new Jhoira might be too good.
AgePosted: 2018-May-10 7:52 am 
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Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Drake
I'm not sure I actually think she should be banned yet, but holy hell is she unfair. Even playing the most restrained (read: durdley non-infinite combos/synergy) artifact deck I could build, the turn after I played her on an empty board I ended with five new artifacts and the same number of cards in hand, and my board doubled in size the turn after until jhoira got killed.

Then I played jhoira again and vomited even more cards on the table. Simply having her + a bunch of mana rocks very quickly turns into a huge threat when you can play Sol Ring into Mana Vault into Commander's Sphere into Voltaic Key untapping vault into mind stone, wayfarer's bauble and expedition map and still have a full grip afterwards.

And honestly I think it actually got more ugly when I stopped playing rocks and dropped shimmer myr plus actual threats like spine of ish sah, arcbound ravager and mirrorworks into double animation module and a blasting station and started going hog wild.

Her draw is just insane and after playing with her I don't think comparing her with yawg's bargain is actually much of a reach, in her own deck she is just as if not more redonkulous on the power scale.

What do other people think about her power level, how have your games with/against jhoira been? Does it turn into a murder jhoira or die type scenario every game?

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

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 Post subject: Re: I think new Jhoira might be too good.
AgePosted: 2018-May-10 8:47 am 

Joined: 2010-Dec-14 4:04 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Boston, MA
I don't like her simply because even an untuned (or even anti-tuned) Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain deck is going to eat up eighty percent of the table's play time as long as Jhoira is out.

Honestly, if someone asked me to design the lamest possible general for theme X, it would be "When you X, draw a card". See also Tatyova from this same set. So... boring... can't... stay... awake...

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 Post subject: Re: I think new Jhoira might be too good.
AgePosted: 2018-May-10 3:33 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-19 1:30 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I think she'll turn into another Zur-like commander, where playgroups simply say "no" to using them as Commanders for casual play. She's too stupidly combo-riffic (a tuned deck basically wins immediately if she hits the table and isn't instant-speed removed), so playgroups are going to deal with her. But, as she's not amazing in anything not tuned to her (unlike, say, Primeval Titan or Sylvan Primordial), you're not going to have the same sort of "everything becomes about that card" sort of play that gets other cards banned.

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 Post subject: Re: I think new Jhoira might be too good.
AgePosted: 2018-May-10 4:28 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Original Jhoira was pretty annoying to play against, so it's somewhat fitting that new Jhoira is too.

Although 'I played a durdley untuned Jhoira deck' and 'I played sol ring, mana vault, voltaic key, mindstone' then 'followed up with shimmer myr, spine of ish sah and archbound ravager' doesnt really jive with me. That sounds like a rather well built deck to me, not maxed out or anything, but not remotely budget.

That said, was no-one playing white? why dont people play more austere command and planar cleansings?

Jhoira is very good, but I dont think she hits too good on paper. When I see her in play I will keep an eye on it though because I can see how it gets out of hand.

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 Post subject: Re: I think new Jhoira might be too good.
AgePosted: 2018-May-10 4:47 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-19 1:30 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
specter404 wrote:
Jhoira is very good, but I dont think she hits too good on paper. When I see her in play I will keep an eye on it though because I can see how it gets out of hand.

In a deck built around her, you can consistently drop her turn 2-4, and combo out (infinite mana + draw your whole deck) if you keep her to the next untap. If you wait until turn 4-6 you can combo off immediately and/or have counterspell mana up to protect her.

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 Post subject: Re: I think new Jhoira might be too good.
AgePosted: 2018-May-10 11:05 pm 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Coco wrote:
Honestly, if someone asked me to design the lamest possible general for theme X, it would be "When you X, draw a card". See also Tatyova from this same set. So... boring... can't... stay... awake...

THANK YOU!!!


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 Post subject: Re: I think new Jhoira might be too good.
AgePosted: 2018-May-11 3:46 am 
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Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Drake
specter404 wrote:
Original Jhoira was pretty annoying to play against, so it's somewhat fitting that new Jhoira is too.

Although 'I played a durdley untuned Jhoira deck' and 'I played sol ring, mana vault, voltaic key, mindstone' then 'followed up with shimmer myr, spine of ish sah and archbound ravager' doesnt really jive with me. That sounds like a rather well built deck to me, not maxed out or anything, but not remotely budget.

That said, was no-one playing white? why dont people play more austere command and planar cleansings?

Jhoira is very good, but I dont think she hits too good on paper. When I see her in play I will keep an eye on it though because I can see how it gets out of hand.


I said restrained, not untuned and not budget. There were no infinites or other easy wins, I actually had to amass a large, synergistic board state to win, which is more than I can say for most decks without busted ass commanders.

And at this point if you don't expect to see well built decks with fast mana regardless of meta power that's just naive. As much as the RC likes to discredit the internet as a voice, it exists, people use it, people buy cards off of it and people who aren't idiots learn to build decent decks by looking at what other people are doing and adapting it for themselves.

People like to spend money on their decks despite how many people seem to think that makes them evil moneygrubbing scumbags and basic synergies like Academy Ruins + Anything, Spine of Ish Sah + Mirrorworks/Trading Post or Arcbound Ravager + Animation Module aren't exactly rocket science.

And as far as board wipes were concerned the only person who wiped the board was me, three times actually, after which I proceeded to completely rebuild my board within two turns because my hand never emptied.

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

QFT


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 Post subject: Re: I think new Jhoira might be too good.
AgePosted: 2018-May-11 6:31 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
cryogen wrote:
Coco wrote:
Honestly, if someone asked me to design the lamest possible general for theme X, it would be "When you X, draw a card". See also Tatyova from this same set. So... boring... can't... stay... awake...

THANK YOU!!!

I dunno... I think the simplicity of it can be interesting.

In the case of Tatyova I feel like the deck doesn't auto-build itself... not entirely anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: I think new Jhoira might be too good.
AgePosted: 2018-May-11 8:13 am 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
Coco wrote:
Honestly, if someone asked me to design the lamest possible general for theme X, it would be "When you X, draw a card". See also Tatyova from this same set. So... boring... can't... stay... awake...


Hey man! D: Ephara is bae

As for Jhoira- I don't dislike her anywhere near as much as OG Jhoira- I think she actually bricks off more often than similar builds I've tried with Jori En, Ruin Diver- so I have my doubts about her being of even remotely similar power-level to generals like Jeleva or Sidisi.

I do think Jhoira and Muldrotha are likely walking all over undeveloped playgroups with shallow pools of disruption or lackluster disruption like 12Wraths.dek

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 Post subject: Re: I think new Jhoira might be too good.
AgePosted: 2018-May-11 5:36 pm 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
niheloim wrote:
cryogen wrote:
Coco wrote:
Honestly, if someone asked me to design the lamest possible general for theme X, it would be "When you X, draw a card". See also Tatyova from this same set. So... boring... can't... stay... awake...

THANK YOU!!!

I dunno... I think the simplicity of it can be interesting.

In the case of Tatyova I feel like the deck doesn't auto-build itself... not entirely anyway.

It's not so much that a deck auto builds itself (like a Narset deck), it's that it gravitates towards goodstuff. "Draw a card for playing lands or artifacts you say? Don't mind if I do!" And then proceed to load up with ramp and some boring wincon.


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 Post subject: Re: I think new Jhoira might be too good.
AgePosted: 2018-May-12 4:12 am 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
cryogen wrote:
It's not so much that a deck auto builds itself (like a Narset deck), it's that it gravitates towards goodstuff. "Draw a card for playing lands or artifacts you say? Don't mind if I do!" And then proceed to load up with ramp and some boring wincon.


I think this is very mistaken tbh. The effect does open up a range of goodstuff effects, but inside of that range are a scope of powerful plays to build around. With my Ephara deck as an example, I could have just as easily created a Flash or Tokens deck- but Solar Flare felt like a cool archetype to synergize with her effect. My Prime Speaker Zegana deck took a similar development path- where at first, the deck was a little on the "goodstuff" side- but through play, I discovered that I liked sharpening the deck into making a particular range of explosive turns- so what began as UG goodstuff quickly got filled up with hydras and Creature Power Matters cards- which both made it significantly stronger as a deck with a vintage cardpool- and more interesting to play with/against.

In both of these particular examples, the General itself is flexible enough to support a more specific strategy effectively- and through play and forethought does so, without having the trappings of being pingeonholed into a singular strategy like Uril. I find flexible generals to be more attractive, because they encourage the player to scrape underneath the surface to find the cool thing to do well. But, since Narset, Enlightened Master seems to be the baseline prescribed here- have you guys ever tried a Narset deck without turns cards? Narset bounce n' burn is way more fun- and can be crafted in a way that keeps pace with other powerful decks- without that boring subgame of waiting out 6-7 extra turns and hoping you live. I highly recommend it- there are no sacred cows in this format.

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 Post subject: Re: I think new Jhoira might be too good.
AgePosted: 2018-May-15 3:48 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
specter404 wrote:
Although 'I played a durdley untuned Jhoira deck' and 'I played sol ring, mana vault, voltaic key, mindstone' then 'followed up with shimmer myr, spine of ish sah and archbound ravager' doesnt really jive with me. That sounds like a rather well built deck to me, not maxed out or anything, but not remotely budget.
QFT

Any commandder with 'draw a card''on it is going to bee gross. She wiil land in Zur, Arcum, Kaalia soft-ban land in a few months.

Also this is Panharmonicon levels of knee-jerk.

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 Post subject: Re: I think new Jhoira might be too good.
AgePosted: 2018-May-24 2:08 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Gath Immortal wrote:
And at this point if you don't expect to see well built decks with fast mana regardless of meta power that's just naive. As much as the RC likes to discredit the internet as a voice, it exists, people use it, people buy cards off of it and people who aren't idiots learn to build decent decks by looking at what other people are doing and adapting it for themselves.

People like to spend money on their decks despite how many people seem to think that makes them evil moneygrubbing scumbags and basic synergies like Academy Ruins + Anything, Spine of Ish Sah + Mirrorworks/Trading Post or Arcbound Ravager + Animation Module aren't exactly rocket science.

For what it's worth 2 weeks later (life is a thing :( )

I guess I live in a beautiful naive world, because people just dont play much of mana crypt or mana vault around me. Fast mana is most commonly signets and sol ring. I had a crypt, and sold it because I just dont see it as a very important part of any deck, including my Karn silver golem deck.

I also dont have an issue with people spending money on their decks, I certainly do. However that money is spent on cool foils, pimping out a deck instead of tuning a deck. My Ghost council deck is so far from tuned because I refuse to add any card, regardless of power, unless I can find a foil.

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 Post subject: Re: I think new Jhoira might be too good.
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-15 3:52 pm 
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Joined: 2011-May-04 9:09 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Saskatchewan
Aside from a handful of combos (see Aetherflux Reservoir), Mox Tribal seems to mostly just burn time. It reminds me of Eggs decks that durdle and technically shift the board state. I wouldn't call Jhoira broken or anything, just dull to watch and tiring with people asking with "have you won yet?" or "can someone just play while you do your thing?"


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 Post subject: Re: I think new Jhoira might be too good.
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-17 1:36 pm 

Joined: 2013-May-17 3:06 pm
Age: Hatchling
I've build=t an Izzet artificer value deck with Jhoira as the commander, and while I have won a considerable amount of the time (which is mostly accredited to Paradox Engine and Aetherflux Reservoir), the deck really does fall apart if you just outright keep Jhoira off the table. I would considered as OP as some of the banned commanders.


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