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 Post subject: mirari And counter spell
AgePosted: 2018-May-26 6:43 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-01 5:25 pm
Age: Wyvern
If I have a mirari on the field and I use a counterspell against a card and pay the {3} and don’t choose any new target would the 2nd one double target the casted card or would it not have a legal target and do nothing?

Thx for taking your time to read this


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 Post subject: Re: mirari And counter spell
AgePosted: 2018-May-26 7:07 am 
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Location: Xenia, OH, USA
crh1985 wrote:
If I have a mirari on the field and I use a counterspell against a card and pay the {3} and don’t choose any new target would the 2nd one double target the casted card or would it not have a legal target and do nothing?

Thx for taking your time to read this


When the copy of the spell gets placed on the stack, it must have a target. You may select a new target or the same target, but you MUST select a target.


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 Post subject: Re: mirari And counter spell
AgePosted: 2018-May-26 7:24 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-01 5:25 pm
Age: Wyvern
Copy cards effects always have a “may choose new targets for the copy” in some way has been on all most all if not all copy spells

So by not choosing new target for it it would target the same card by default of card effect


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 Post subject: Re: mirari And counter spell
AgePosted: 2018-May-26 10:15 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
crh1985 wrote:
Copy cards effects always have a “may choose new targets for the copy” in some way has been on all most all if not all copy spells

So by not choosing new target for it it would target the same card by default of card effect
Note: This is true, and the reason for this wording is that, in the case of a target becoming illegal between the original cast and the copy being placed on the stack, you are allowed to have the copy still target the (now) illegal target. (Generally this will result in the spell failing to resolve if it no longer has a valid target.)

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 Post subject: Re: mirari And counter spell
AgePosted: 2018-May-26 10:51 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Follow up question, which I assume is a Dumb Question(tm) but just occurred to me:

If I copy a spell and "choose" (<-- official wording) a new target, does it in fact "target" (<-- official wording) that new target? You'd assume so, but other spells that "choose" something generally don't target unless they say "choose target enchantment" or whatever

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 Post subject: Re: mirari And counter spell
AgePosted: 2018-May-26 11:13 am 
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Viperion wrote:
If I copy a spell and "choose" (<-- official wording) a new target, does it in fact "target" (<-- official wording) that new target? You'd assume so, but other spells that "choose" something generally don't target unless they say "choose target enchantment" or whatever
Yes, the "target" designation still exists, and if you change the copy's target, the new target must be something that can be legally targeted. The only way a spell can ever be put on the stack with an illegal target is by copying and declining to change the previous target.

Note: As this is a new copy of a spell being put on the stack, any on-target effects (such as those of Reality Smasher or Scalelord Reckoner) will also trigger.

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 Post subject: Re: mirari And counter spell
AgePosted: 2018-May-27 1:27 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Viperion wrote:
Follow up question, which I assume is a Dumb Question(tm) but just occurred to me:

If I copy a spell and "choose" (<-- official wording) a new target, does it in fact "target" (<-- official wording) that new target? You'd assume so, but other spells that "choose" something generally don't target unless they say "choose target enchantment" or whatever

If the spell has the word 'target' on it -- then you are indeed targeting the new object.

If the spell you are copying says "choose" and doesn't actually have the word "target" -- then you're not targeting the new object (and wouldn't be choosing to target anything different, as there is no target.)


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 Post subject: Re: mirari And counter spell
AgePosted: 2018-May-27 3:53 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Viperion wrote:
Follow up question, which I assume is a Dumb Question(tm) but just occurred to me:

If I copy a spell and "choose" (<-- official wording) a new target, does it in fact "target" (<-- official wording) that new target? You'd assume so, but other spells that "choose" something generally don't target unless they say "choose target enchantment" or whatever

Do you mean would copying a targeted spell trigger things that look for whenever X becomes a target? I think so. Though I dont have any references handy.

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 Post subject: Re: mirari And counter spell
AgePosted: 2018-May-29 6:59 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-30 12:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I think what he's getting at is, Clone effects have historically shown that in Magic "choose" and "target" do NOT mean the same thing. You cannot target a creature with Shroud, but you can still Clone that creature. Therefore we are sort of conditioned to see the word "choose" on a card and automatically think "Ah ha! This doesn't say 'target' so I can still 'choose' things I couldn't target!"

However, in this case I would argue that the phrase "Choose new targets" is roughly the same as saying "target something else" so in essence is it still a TARGET-based wording not a CHOOSE-based wording.

For the sake of argument I think WotC could make this a tad clearer by not using the word "choose" here, since that word has long-established rules baggage, and could instead say "Select new targets" or something to that effect.

Anyway, from a rules standpoint, I am 99.999% certain you cannot target a random dork with a Path to Exile and then Reverberate it and choose an opponent's Archetype of Endurance with the copy.

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 Post subject: Re: mirari And counter spell
AgePosted: 2018-May-29 7:10 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
thaumaturge wrote:
Anyway, from a rules standpoint, I am 99.999% certain you cannot target a random dork with a Path to Exile and then Reverberate it and choose an opponent's Archetype of Endurance with the copy.

Correct. When choosing targets, you must select valid targets for the spell or effect.

Comp Rules wrote:
114.7d. If an effect allows a player to "choose new targets" for a spell or ability, the player may leave any number of the targets unchanged, even if those targets would be illegal. If the player chooses to change some or all of the targets, the new targets must be legal and must not cause any unchanged targets to become illegal.


And for the record, the Comp Rules also says you are choosing targets when you initially cast a spell (or activate an effect) that requires one or more targets. (rule 114.1 for any interested.)


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 Post subject: Re: mirari And counter spell
AgePosted: 2018-May-29 8:49 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Maybe "select" would be a better word for the template than "choose"

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 Post subject: Re: mirari And counter spell
AgePosted: 2018-May-29 10:20 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Perhaps you should have been in TGDS18.

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 Post subject: Re: mirari And counter spell
AgePosted: 2018-May-29 7:26 pm 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Heck, the rules for targeting use the word "choose" themselves.

Quote:
114.1. Some spells and abilities require their controller to choose one or more targets for them.


Making a choice means we choose from among the options presented to us. We just make sure our choice is legitimate by the rules and/or card text given to us.

Targets follow targeting rules. When we choose targets for anything, we follow the targeting rules for constraints as to what makes a legitimate choice: the choice for our target must be valid as a target.

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 Post subject: Re: mirari And counter spell
AgePosted: 2018-May-29 8:59 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-19 1:30 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Yup. The word "choose" is used for most times you make a choice in magic. After the "choose" it tells you limitations on what you can choose - if the word "target" comes after, then targeting limitations apply. Other effects may limit it in other ways, such as "choose a color" (Quirion Elves), "choose one" (most modal spells), "choose a player" (Stuffy Doll), etc. etc.

thaumaturge wrote:
I think what he's getting at is, Clone effects have historically shown that in Magic "choose" and "target" do NOT mean the same thing.
Well, then I guess it's good that Clone and similar effects no longer use the word "choose"? So no more confusion there.
Also of note, clone effects didn't originally use the word "choose", either - other cards used it before clone effects ever did, and other cards have used it after clones stopped.

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 Post subject: Re: mirari And counter spell
AgePosted: 2018-May-30 1:57 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-30 12:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Willbender wrote:
Well, then I guess it's good that Clone and similar effects no longer use the word "choose"? So no more confusion there.
Also of note, clone effects didn't originally use the word "choose", either - other cards used it before clone effects ever did, and other cards have used it after clones stopped.
Holy shit, I did not even realize that. The last time I actually had to READ the text of a Clone effect was back when the still said "choose" I think.

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