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 Post subject: Re: Mark Rosewater Blogatog issue with Hybrid cards
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-26 9:08 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Maro once said that hybrid cards should be able to be used in decks of either (any) of their colors because "that's how it works in literally all other formats". Nothing else is necessary to explain how much he misunderstands the point that EDH is *not* any other format and that CI was never about what you could *cast*.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Rosewater Blogatog issue with Hybrid cards
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-26 11:55 am 
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Keep in mind that Maro doesn't play Commander and doesn't understand the intricacies.

I've written about this in the past, and our stance hasn't changed, so I'm just going to link to it here. Someday I'll update it and do a sticky thread.

https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the ... omment=575

I will note that they don't work the way Maro thinks in all other formats. Take a hybrid mana deck to a Standard tournament and tell them that Maro said you could play it. See what happens.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Rosewater Blogatog issue with Hybrid cards
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-26 12:56 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sovarius wrote:
I agree that is how they were *supposed* to be. But they were a failed design in that regard. Unmake is a very black/white card in my opinion, very well designed. It could be printed as white only card, but there is virtually 0 black cards that can do that on their own. It is not a mono black card and i don't think someone playing an Erebos deck should be allowed to put Unmake into their deck. The card is black AND white no matter how you stretch your imagination or interpret the rules, i don't think a Thalia deck should be allowed to use it either.


I agree with your premise, but not your example. In fact unmake is possibly the worst example to use to defend your position because "exile target creature" has literally appeared on black, white and black/white cards, see the following for black examples:

settle the score
sever the bloodline
vraska's contempt

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Rosewater Blogatog issue with Hybrid cards
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-26 12:59 pm 

Joined: 2015-Dec-22 4:41 am
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While I don't necessarily think hybrids should be allowed in monocolored decks, I think many of the anti-hybrids arguments in this thread focus too much on flavor interpretation and crapping on MaRo--a 20-year expert--than it does on objective, cohesive reasoning. I think the fact that the color identity rules would have to change is a good enough reason to keep them out. As for deckbuilding restrictions, the only reason why other formats don't have color-excluding restrictions is because they are largely unnecessary. Color cost, in and of itself, IS a deckbuilding restriction and hybrids are designed to get around such restrictions.

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Rosewater Blogatog issue with Hybrid cards
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-26 10:47 pm 

Joined: 2013-Jun-23 10:18 am
Age: Elder Dragon
MMLgamer wrote:
As for deckbuilding restrictions, the only reason why other formats don't have color-excluding restrictions is because they are largely unnecessary. Color cost, in and of itself, IS a deckbuilding restriction and hybrids are designed to get around such restrictions.


That's not a "deckbuilding restriction" as I would use the term (or, if I have read his linked comment correctly, Papa Funk's). A deckbuilding restriction is a restriction on the cards that can legally go together in your deck- a restriction on how your deck can be constructed. No more than 4-of a card in Standard, or than 1-of a card in EDH is a deckbuilding restriction. Colour costs are a matter of whether your deck is effective, not whether it is legal. That's not the same thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Rosewater Blogatog issue with Hybrid cards
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-26 10:56 pm 

Joined: 2015-Dec-22 4:41 am
Age: Drake
Swmystery wrote:
That's not a "deckbuilding restriction" as I would use the term (or, if I have read his linked comment correctly, Papa Funk's). A deckbuilding restriction is a restriction on the cards that can legally go together in your deck- a restriction on how your deck can be constructed. No more than 4-of a card in Standard, or of 1-of a card in EDH is a deckbuilding restriction. Colour costs are a matter of whether your deck is effective, not whether it is legal. That's not the same thing.


Thank you for the stupidly obvious literal interpretation of the terms I used in my post. Yes, I know what deckbuilding restrictions mean according to the rules. I knew this when I wrote my last post and without your help. I was not speaking in literal terms but rather in practical terms, and I'm pretty sure MaRo was, too.

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Rosewater Blogatog issue with Hybrid cards
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-27 2:00 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
specter404 wrote:
settle the score
sever the bloodline
vraska's contempt

These not are just recent, but like the actual *most* recent imaginable. Black never received an unconditional exile spot removal without any weird hitch until Unmake, and then never again until Vraska's Contempt. Unmake was only that good as a triple-b spell because it was also white, and if they never created hybrid mana they would have never made an unconditional exile spot removal for a mono black card in that era. Also, changing the color pie in the last couple years to create a few more and create Vraska's Contempt does not retroactively make Unmake less of a weird design for it's time frame w/r/t context.

Unmake is a totally fine card when you consider that it's both white and black.

MMLgamer wrote:
many of the anti-hybrids arguments in this thread focus too much on flavor interpretation


That's to be expected though, it is a pretty flavor based format.

MMLgamer wrote:
and crapping on MaRo--a 20-year expert--

Yea but experts can be incorrect, they are not infallible. He *is* out of touch with some aspects of magic.

You know last year he asked in regards to a comment made about snow duals fixing the reserve list problem "If we created snow duals does it fix the problem, or do the best decks just play both?". He clearly does not understand everything about mtg and that's okay to say. I'm not crapping on him personally, i like him.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Rosewater Blogatog issue with Hybrid cards
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-27 2:37 am 
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MMLgamer wrote:
Swmystery wrote:
That's not a "deckbuilding restriction" as I would use the term (or, if I have read his linked comment correctly, Papa Funk's). A deckbuilding restriction is a restriction on the cards that can legally go together in your deck- a restriction on how your deck can be constructed. No more than 4-of a card in Standard, or of 1-of a card in EDH is a deckbuilding restriction. Colour costs are a matter of whether your deck is effective, not whether it is legal. That's not the same thing.


Thank you for the stupidly obvious literal interpretation of the terms I used in my post. Yes, I know what deckbuilding restrictions mean according to the rules. I knew this when I wrote my last post and without your help. I was not speaking in literal terms but rather in practical terms, and I'm pretty sure MaRo was, too.

Problem is that isn't even necessarily true in practical terms, especially in Eternal formats. Hell, BFZ's standard included multiple 4 color decks and during Lorwyn/Alara block one of the best decks was able to main deck Cloudthresher, Cruel Ultimatum, and Wrath of God.

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Rosewater Blogatog issue with Hybrid cards
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-27 2:49 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sovarius wrote:
MMLgamer wrote:
and crapping on MaRo--a 20-year expert--

Yea but experts can be incorrect, they are not infallible. He *is* out of touch with some aspects of magic.

I'd say that MaRo hasn't really tried to get into EDH - so he's not an expert on EDH at all. He's stated he doesn't like multiplayer games (due to disliking the multiplayer politics). So I'm not sure why people like to point to his ideas as some sort of an expert on the format.

It's like someone saying that they should ban FoW in Legacy because 90% (if not more) blue decks run it, so it must be overpowered. On the surface, that can make sense. But the fallout of that kind of change would be much more than the person suggesting the change is thinking of (assuming the proposed 'reason' I gave is the only reason to make the change.)


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Rosewater Blogatog issue with Hybrid cards
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-27 3:48 am 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
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Where is this thread even going? :lol:

!Maro- The guy has never been a grinder or a judge- I think he can be forgiven for either not knowing about CI rules in EDH, or protesting them. His contribution to the game is huge, and his opinionatin' is just his opinionatin'. I specifically avoided saying anything about him before- because fixating on him in a thread leads to the same tired old arguments about designs he flubbed up (looking at you Urza's Block), or the times he was ridiculously on point when getting more hands on with set design. Dude's also known for making posts and responses on the fly- we could pick bones about his "Drive to Work Podcast" (yes, that's a real thing- and it's pretty insightful most of the time) or anything else- but at the end of the day, he's an older man who has spent over 20 years developing a game dictated by combinatory mathematics.

Plus, if we want to complain about R&D, we could just talk about Zac Hill's developer hubris (remember that guy who pushed Cavern of Souls into existing because he fixated on removing control decks from MtG? Giving us a Summer of Delver after half a year of getting away from Cawblade? Even when the other Devs were like "Dude, just make Titans and Mulldrifters good enough")- that song and dance is always more productive than "MaRo's old and out of touch." We know, but MaRo tells lots of cool stories, and gives us hard candy, and his heart is always in the right place.

!Unmake- I chose the card as an example because it's a 3 mana instant that allows Black to put a creature into a non-Graveyard zone. White has quite a few cards that do it cheaper, or just all around more efficiently- but it could hypothetically be the 4th Swords in White-heavy decks, where it straight up would outclass most options like Silence the Believers and Sever the Bloodline in mono-B variants. That would be a loss for the format, because figuring out how and when to use answers like Sever adds charm to playing mono-B, that cool realization that Black isn't incapable, but also isn't very efficient at moving things from the field into any zone except the graveyard... Because Black cares about the graveyard- duh.

If you really don't like the deckbuilding restrictions, discuss them with your group, or just play Vintage Highlander (and then come back when it "clicks".) Among all of the weird things about EDH, the more I have played, the more obvious how necessary CI is to keeping this format in a fairly natural flux. If your group makes exceptions to CI rules, allows/curates-to-allow Wishboards, etc- then you can experiment in crafting your own variant (pretty sure most of us dig that anyways, right?)

Stay classy, dudes

EDIT: Just incase it seemed incendiary, I want to clarify that Vintage Highlander is one of the most insanely skill intensive formats I've ever had the pleasure of playing. What I mean, however- is that it is a VERY "dry" format, because while you have to do the same kind of mental legwork and account for strange interactions (which makes building up general skill and understand of MtG happen quite often,) the EDH ruleset modifies the format to put an emphasis on fun and creativity- to match the sheer intensity of that form of Magic, with enough restriction to keep the experience novel.

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Rosewater Blogatog issue with Hybrid cards
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-27 4:26 am 

Joined: 2013-Jun-23 10:18 am
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MMLgamer wrote:
Thank you for the stupidly obvious literal interpretation of the terms I used in my post. Yes, I know what deckbuilding restrictions mean according to the rules. I knew this when I wrote my last post and without your help. I was not speaking in literal terms but rather in practical terms, and I'm pretty sure MaRo was, too.


You're impressively hostile for someone I've barely interacted with.

In practical terms, your statement is false (as Kong pointed out). Both Modern and Legacy, and certainly Commander, have manabases that allow you to run 5-colour lists with some pretty significant casting costs involved. Colour costs have often not been a meaningful "deckbuilding restriction" in Constructed formats. If your "restriction" is just that your deck has a slightly harder time casting its spells on time, I submit that it isn't a deckbuilding restriction at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Rosewater Blogatog issue with Hybrid cards
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-27 5:30 am 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
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Swmystery wrote:
MMLgamer wrote:
Thank you for the stupidly obvious literal interpretation of the terms I used in my post. Yes, I know what deckbuilding restrictions mean according to the rules. I knew this when I wrote my last post and without your help. I was not speaking in literal terms but rather in practical terms, and I'm pretty sure MaRo was, too.


You're impressively hostile for someone I've barely interacted with.

In practical terms, your statement is false (as Kong pointed out). Both Modern and Legacy, and certainly Commander, have manabases that allow you to run 5-colour lists with some pretty significant casting costs involved. Colour costs have often not been a meaningful "deckbuilding restriction" in Constructed formats. If your "restriction" is just that your deck has a slightly harder time casting its spells on time, I submit that it isn't a deckbuilding restriction at all.


What I think MML is trying to describe, but not articulating well is the inherent opportunity cost of 4/5 color decks- which itself, is a very real thing- and it does impact 3c significantly as well (but is fundamentally less all-encompassing.) The "manabase issue" isn't related so much to a lack of quality options, but the difficulty in swinging weighted costs that share multiple instances of a single color.

Kong's point is on the money, in a general sense- but in the BFZ format in particular, the 4 color decks were build as 2 color decks with 2 easy splashes more often than not. But also, more often than not, it became an advantage to play a 2 color or 3 color (using 1 or 2 dominant colors) in that format to put yourself completely online earlier. Or, in the Lorwyn/Shards format, for example- the decks rocking 4 Reflecting Pools and Filters typically had bad matchups against decks that fixed themselves and came online super quick like Faeries or Jund.

In the EDH context however, this is a very awkward topic in the first place- since 4/5c decks have all of the fixing tools available as singletons. The opportunity cost of playing Angel of Serenity, Cryptic Command, Phyrexian Obliterator, or Praetor's Council is very-much-so present, but tools like Fist of the Suns, or Gilded Lotus, and smaller scale color-shifting artifacts/lands diminishes it to the point where the opportunity cost often becomes making 1 move, versus being able to make 3- and 4/5c decks made and piloted by creative players find ways around it- but also understand the priority of only picking weighted costs that absolutely benefit their actual strategy on the whole.

It's just that simple, if your fixing is disrupted, it's easier to get choked- and in general, the more careless you are about color weights, the fewer options you end up having. Often enough, it's less difficult to use things with 2 or 3 different color weights than 1 single color of 3 weights. But if the effect synergizes, it synergizes- and fixing is just part of the game.

I just feel like it's important to be charitable, and chalk this up to communication error regarding difficult, long-winded concepts- or who knows, maybe this rambling mess will help give better framing for the actual downside of playing more colors, without punching into hyperbole-land? :)

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Rosewater Blogatog issue with Hybrid cards
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-27 6:02 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Mr Degradation wrote:
Where is this thread even going? :lol:

!Maro-

Like i mentioned before, i wasn't here to dunk on the guy.

But the problem is that people look to MaRo because he is the public face.

When he says hybrid mana is goofed up in this format, some people take that as somewhat gospel, as evidence it should be changed or is wrong. He says something like that, and someone goes and makes a thread "why no hybrid cards Mark thinks they are a good idea?".

This is like when people say Moxen instead of Moxes and i want to be a bitch and nitpick about how it is Moxes, someone always links me to MaRo's blog where he says 'since they are made up i prefer moxen'.

Whether he knows or not people do look to his word as professional, expert, and educated.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Rosewater Blogatog issue with Hybrid cards
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-27 9:07 am 
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MMLgamer wrote:
MaRo--a 20-year expert


A 20 year expert who today claimed "Yet you can play Transguild Courier in any color deck even though it’s all five colors."

(You can't)

Mark's great, but I don't think even he would cite himself as an authority on Commander.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Rosewater Blogatog issue with Hybrid cards
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-27 11:51 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sovarius wrote:
specter404 wrote:
sever the bloodline

These not are just recent but like the actual *most* recent imaginable.


Sever is from original Innistrad, which is 7 years ago now, exile in mono-black has been commonplace in sets since then

Basically, you're just old :P

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