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 Post subject: Re: Mark Rosewater Blogatog issue with Hybrid cards
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-29 12:55 am 
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Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
Sovarius wrote:
These not are just recent, but like the actual *most* recent imaginable. Black never received an unconditional exile spot removal without any weird hitch until Unmake, and then never again until Vraska's Contempt. Unmake was only that good as a triple-b spell because it was also white, and if they never created hybrid mana they would have never made an unconditional exile spot removal for a mono black card in that era. Also, changing the color pie in the last couple years to create a few more and create Vraska's Contempt does not retroactively make Unmake less of a weird design for it's time frame w/r/t context.

Unmake is a totally fine card when you consider that it's both white and black.



Ashes to Ashes
Cannabalize
Eradicate

The precedent existed previous to unmake even if it isn't "unconditional" and ashes to ashes is pretty much the OG of badass sorcery speed removal.

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Rosewater Blogatog issue with Hybrid cards
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-29 7:35 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
specter404 wrote:
Sever is from original Innistrad, which is 7 years ago now, exile in mono-black has been commonplace in sets since then

Basically, you're just old :P


I dind't think Innistrad was 7 years ago honestly, oops.

Gath Immortal wrote:
Ashes to Ashes
Cannabalize
Eradicate

The precedent existed previous to unmake even if it isn't "unconditional" and ashes to ashes is pretty much the OG of badass sorcery speed removal.


What you are saying doesn't seem to agree or disagree with what i said. I know what those cards are and took them into account and they are what i was referring to. I played through and opened packs of all those sets, lol, but i did double check Scryfall to see if Unmake was actually the first the way i think of it.

Notably Gath, you didn't just list 3 of these effects prior to Unmake, you listed ALL 3 of the ways black could exile a creature from the battlefield before unmake. Just 3, and they were from '94 to '99, and then Unmake was printed nearly 10 years later. That's explicitly *not* a real precedent. I wasn't saying that Unmake was the first way you could spend black mana to exile a target.

To be more specific, until Unmake, you could not spend only black mana to instant speed exile a target creature without any condition or some kind of bonus hitch or payment or effect or high mana cost. It was was one or more of: sorcery speed, cost life, had to be nonblack, cost a ton of mana, had some other drawback or bonus.

As far as i am aware, Silence the Believers was the first. And now looking at new sets, there is Final Reward and Hour of Glory, but i don't think we disagree that those didn't exist 10-20 years ago. If anything, maybe Unmake lead them down the road of giving black more exile, and now, apparently there are 3 mono-black cards that exile a target creature at instant speed with no restriction. And many sorcery speed ones every new set apparently.

If hybrid didn't exist 10 years ago, there wasn't going to be a BBB Unmake, Instant, Exile Target Creature. That card clearly only exists because it is also white.

This is exactly the kind of the stuff i live for in MTG though, i love analyzing cards and the history of their effects.

Just for fun, Exile into Darkness does not even exile into darkness!


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Rosewater Blogatog issue with Hybrid cards
AgePosted: 2018-May-02 12:35 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Mar-10 4:30 am
Age: Drake
Okay, I think I have a much kinder, gentler meta than many of you, so maybe this doesn't really matter much. (I also have deck themes, and if there isn't a theme, the deck dies...)

Anyway.

I love playing hybrid cards.

I hate even the idea of putting them into a deck with only half of the colors in the general's CI.

I think Maro is great.

I never, ever listen to anything he has to say about Commander, since he doesn't play it and doesn't care for it.

:oops: I just want some assurance that this no-hybrids-in-decks-with-only-half-the-CI is not in any danger. I love that rule. :oops:


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Rosewater Blogatog issue with Hybrid cards
AgePosted: 2018-May-02 2:12 pm 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Isabelle wrote:

:oops: I just want some assurance that this no-hybrids-in-decks-with-only-half-the-CI is not in any danger. I love that rule. :oops:


You might want to look at that link I posted last page.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Rosewater Blogatog issue with Hybrid cards
AgePosted: 2018-May-02 11:35 pm 

Joined: 2015-Dec-22 4:41 am
Age: Drake
One thing I must point out: the arguments for allowing hybrids in mono-colored decks is similar to or would be similar to the arguments for allowing in mono-colored decks cards that had bonuses or penalties depending on whether or not a "{colored mana symbol} was spent to cast" those spells. For example, should Court Hussar be allowed in mono-blue decks? After all, Court Hussar's effect is undeniably a blue effect, even if it would never stay on the battlefield. The answer is: obviously not, since once again, there is no clean way to allow them without a confusing and convoluted mess of a ruleset. However, that's really the only good reason IMHO.

papa_funk wrote:
MMLgamer wrote:
MaRo--a 20-year expert


A 20 year expert who today claimed "Yet you can play Transguild Courier in any color deck even though it’s all five colors."

(You can't)

Mark's great, but I don't think even he would cite himself as an authority on Commander.

No, he's just an authority on Magic the (F*ing) Gathering. Given that the MTGcommander.net doesn't even word the Command Tax rule correctly, I think the people running this site can afford to give some respect and consideration for him, even if you disagree with his opinion. Attack the argument, not the man.

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Rosewater Blogatog issue with Hybrid cards
AgePosted: 2018-May-03 2:09 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Who attacked MaRo and not what he was saying?


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Rosewater Blogatog issue with Hybrid cards
AgePosted: 2018-May-03 9:12 am 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
MMLgamer wrote:
Given that the MTGcommander.net doesn't even word the Command Tax rule correctly.


What's wrong with Rule 8? Note that it's intended as a summary, not the CR explanation.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Rosewater Blogatog issue with Hybrid cards
AgePosted: 2018-May-03 2:50 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Carthain wrote:
Who attacked MaRo and not what he was saying?

Definitely not the people running the site, as that would be the RC. In fact I would dare say the RC haven't attacked MaRo at all.

MMLgamer wrote:
No, he's just an authority on Magic the (F*ing) Gathering.

Not really. Mark is a design guy. And his contributions to the game should not be understated. But he's not a rules guy. He comes up with the splashy concepts and the big ideas and generally leaves it to others to implement the details. Hence why he oft referred to Aaron Forscythe (probably spelled that wrong) the head of the rules people as his nemesis, because Aaron's job was to implement his crazy ideas, which often meant telling Mark "No. It can't be done."

Bottom line is he is not an authority on rules and interactions, and if he were, he'd know things like how color identity actually works. Now to be fair, there was a point (quite a long time ago now) that Transguild Courier WAS legal in any deck (so were Kobolds of Kher Keep), because the old version of the CI rule only cared about mana symbols that aren't in the cost of the general not appearing anywhere in the deck. This made some generals invalidate themselves as generals (such as Memnarch). But again, this was a long time ago.

Look at it this way - I know how to drive a car. I can even check my fluid levels and refill them if I need to. But I'm not a mechanic, and anyone who listens to me if I suddenly start talking about car repair should bear in mind that I don't actually know much about what I'm talking about. That's MaRo talking EDH. He knows design. He knows how to come up with cool ideas. But he doesn't know the ins and outs of EDH, and as such his comments have to be considered in that light.

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Rosewater Blogatog issue with Hybrid cards
AgePosted: 2018-May-03 5:13 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Mark Rosewater was (some time ago) a Level 3 judge (when the judge program went to 5). He does know the rules, although not as well as he did when he was judging obviously. He does trip up on rulings reasonably often, usually because he's literally answering questions on his phone while standing in line somewhere. Downplaying his rules knowledge is misrepresenting him, somewhat.

(His rules battles were with Mark Gottlieb and Matt Tabak btw, not Aaron Forsyth, who is his boss. But that's not particularly important).

You are right in that he doesn't know the ins and outs of EDH though.

However, he does know how colour identity works*; he just disagrees that that's how it should work, which is where his stance on hybrid is coming from.

I can't off the top of my head remember who the RC member who works for WotC is (Scott Larabee, I think?), but I don't think his path and Mark's cross very often.

TL;DR - MaRo does have the required rules knowledge. His issue is in the implementation of colour identity, he's not tripping up on the rules lingo of it.

*Having said that he did derp on the 5-colour identifier on Transguild Courier

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