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 Post subject: Mark Rosewater Blogatog issue with Hybrid cards
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-25 2:36 pm 

Joined: 2017-Dec-23 4:51 am
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Recently I've been visiting Blogatog and Mark is answering a lot of questions about how he feels/thinks that somehow the hybrid cards doesn't work the same way in EDH as they work in every other format. For the lastest answers he's giving about this topic it seems that he missed the part where you could cast a hybrid spell even if the secondary color isn't on your general's color ID, due to the change on the mana-generating rule some years ago.

Seizing the opportunity on taking this discussion, I want to know: what are your feelings about letting hybrid cards being used in EDH decks without both colors in their general ID the same way a card with Extort can be used?


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Rosewater Blogatog issue with Hybrid cards
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-25 3:16 pm 

Joined: 2015-Dec-22 4:41 am
Age: Drake
I'm not sure there's a clean way to make a rule for it. The best attempt I could make at drafting a comprehensive rule for it would be something like:

While determining the color identity of a card that isn't your commander, if it has any hybrid mana symbols with more than one color, for each of those mana symbols, choose one of its colors and ignore the rest. This rule alters the rules for deckbuilding and it applies before the game begins.

Or something like that.

I know it will probably never happen, but all the same, I'd like to challenge you to draft a better rule for it.

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Last edited by MMLgamer on 2018-Apr-25 8:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Rosewater Blogatog issue with Hybrid cards
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-25 4:43 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
What are you referencing?


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Rosewater Blogatog issue with Hybrid cards
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-25 7:07 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Reference:
Quote:
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/155566635553/maro-what-is-your-stance-on-hybrid-cards-in


As mentioned above, I don't see a good way to marry the color identify rules to the use of hybrid cards. Extort was allowed as an interpretation of the rules, not as a change to them, allowing hybrids would require the redrafting of the color identity rules, which is no small thing.

As to the concept, I'm not especially keen on allowing hybrids. I feel they are out of place, that said I'm also the kind of person who won't run verdant catacombs in a BW deck.

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Rosewater Blogatog issue with Hybrid cards
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-25 9:38 pm 

Joined: 2017-Dec-23 4:51 am
Age: Hatchling
Sovarius wrote:
What are you referencing?


specter404 referenced one here but there are a lot of these posts recently, like this:

Quote:
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/173311844643/in-commander-bluered-hybrid-is-treated-as-if


He seems to think that you can't cast the cards if one of the colors isn't in your general ID, but my point is rather if we should have the option of adding them in our decks "ignoring" half of the color if it's convenient.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Rosewater Blogatog issue with Hybrid cards
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-25 9:58 pm 

Joined: 2013-Jun-23 10:18 am
Age: Elder Dragon
petruscaex wrote:
He seems to think that you can't cast the cards if one of the colors isn't in your general ID, but my point is rather if we should have the option of adding them in our decks "ignoring" half of the color if it's convenient.


Cards have to be in your deck to cast them (unless Wishes are in play, but see Rule 13). Therefore, if you have a mono-W Commander you functionally can't cast Unmake, for example. He's not saying you literally can't cast the cards through something like Diluvian Primordial or whatever.

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Rosewater Blogatog issue with Hybrid cards
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-25 10:27 pm 

Joined: 2015-Dec-22 4:41 am
Age: Drake
Okay, my last draft of the potential rule was quite inadequate, so I'm trying again. Bear in mind that I'm only doing this for fun and not necessarily because I think it should happen. On that note, I welcome any non-defeatist criticism of the draft an any suggestion for improvement.

903.5x. Some cards have hybrid mana symbols in their mana cost and/or rule text. Those cards are subject to an optional deck construction rule: For each mana symbol in a card's mana cost or rule text that is used when determining the color identity of that card, if that mana symbol is more than one color, chose one of those colors and note the rest. If that mana symbol is only one color, note that color. Then, note the colors defined by the color indicators and self-defining characteristics that are used to determine the card's color identity. That card can be included in a commander deck as though each color that is chosen but not noted this way weren't in the card's color identity. This is an exception to rule 903.5c.

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Rosewater Blogatog issue with Hybrid cards
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-25 10:59 pm 

Joined: 2017-Dec-23 4:51 am
Age: Hatchling
Swmystery wrote:
Cards have to be in your deck to cast them (unless Wishes are in play, but see Rule 13). Therefore, if you have a mono-W Commander you functionally can't cast Unmake, for example. He's not saying you literally can't cast the cards through something like Diluvian Primordial or whatever.


His recent answers are making me think the opposite, because he stated in one answer that you can cast cards that aren't in your library (Praetor's Grasp for example) but he said in a lot of posts that in EDH you can't cast hybrid cards without having both colors in your general ID without even mentioning the color identity rule. It may be my minsinterpretation, though.

@MMLgamer it could be an interesting rule-bending idea, but looking from another point of view, nothing prohibits a player of having, for example, a Nim Deathmantle in decks of any color ID, and the creature will still be of a color potentially out of his generals'. Is the color really the relevant matter here? Embalm and Eternalize both are abilities that bend the color ID rule too.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Rosewater Blogatog issue with Hybrid cards
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-26 1:55 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
petruscaex wrote:
His recent answers are making me think the opposite, because he stated in one answer that you can cast cards that aren't in your library (Praetor's Grasp for example) but he said in a lot of posts that in EDH you can't cast hybrid cards without having both colors in your general ID without even mentioning the color identity rule. It may be my minsinterpretation, though.

First ... 'cast' vs 'have in your deck at the start of the game' are vastly different in commander.

If either you or MaRo are muddying those waters and not being explicitly clear about which you are talking about -- then using what he says means a grand total of 0.

And MaRo has (last I checked) not quite realized that how he designed the cards is different from how the rules see the cards - and how you cast them is different from how the cards are. EDH uses how they are - not how you can cast them.

And that link to what MaRo is saying isn't 100% factual either - as he's just assuming some things - and those things need to be spelled out in order to accurately talk about this kind of thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Rosewater Blogatog issue with Hybrid cards
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-26 2:57 am 

Joined: 2017-Dec-23 4:51 am
Age: Hatchling
Carthain wrote:
First ... 'cast' vs 'have in your deck at the start of the game' are vastly different in commander.

If either you or MaRo are muddying those waters and not being explicitly clear about which you are talking about -- then using what he says means a grand total of 0.

And MaRo has (last I checked) not quite realized that how he designed the cards is different from how the rules see the cards - and how you cast them is different from how the cards are. EDH uses how they are - not how you can cast them.

And that link to what MaRo is saying isn't 100% factual either - as he's just assuming some things - and those things need to be spelled out in order to accurately talk about this kind of thing.


Indeed, I'm explaining myself now: my post is about changing how the Color Identity Rule sees hybrid cards and the possible implications on changing this interpretation. Not that I want it to change very bad, but some months ago this was discussed in my playgroup and people were arguing over the EDH decks who came with Blind Obedience. I stated that the reminder text in itallic doesn't change anything about the cards' color identity, and people started debating if the rule should actually change or not the combination of colors of a hybrid card depending on the ID of it's general.

But about MaRo, I agree with you.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Rosewater Blogatog issue with Hybrid cards
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-26 2:59 am 

Joined: 2017-Dec-23 4:51 am
Age: Hatchling
And yes, this don't have anything to do with the possibility of CASTING such cards.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Rosewater Blogatog issue with Hybrid cards
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-26 3:29 am 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
Honestly, this looks like another Wish thread in disguise. Regardless- the point of color identity is to restrict your cardpool- which is very important for a format like Commander to function. Being able to play Unmake in my UW, GW, or GB deck, would have the "Dismember effect"- where a card's cost is so liberal that it permits usage in decks without the lands required to play it in all of it's modes.

Because Commander has a special emphasis on problem solving, color identity becomes important since it requires using very different sets of tools to solve the same problems in different color identities- where something like Extort is entirely different BECAUSE the hybrid cost is only relative to the ability- not the card as a whole.

Changing this would make cards like Murkfiend Liege proliferate too much, and spoil Mono U, Mono G, or decks that just splash either color- centralizing the game in anti-climactic ways.

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Rosewater Blogatog issue with Hybrid cards
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-26 4:36 am 
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Joined: 2013-Oct-26 9:21 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Xenia, OH, USA
Mr Degradation wrote:
Honestly, this looks like another Wish thread in disguise. Regardless- the point of color identity is to restrict your cardpool- which is very important for a format like Commander to function. Being able to play Unmake in my UW, GW, or GB deck, would have the "Dismember effect"- where a card's cost is so liberal that it permits usage in decks without the lands required to play it in all of it's modes.

Because Commander has a special emphasis on problem solving, color identity becomes important since it requires using very different sets of tools to solve the same problems in different color identities- where something like Extort is entirely different BECAUSE the hybrid cost is only relative to the ability- not the card as a whole.

Changing this would make cards like Murkfiend Liege proliferate too much, and spoil Mono U, Mono G, or decks that just splash either color- centralizing the game in anti-climactic ways.


This is pretty much the best response to CI and I appreciate you typing out and forming my thoughts into coherent sentences.

Commander is all about coming up with novel ways of doing something under restrictions. Be that the 100 card limit, CI rules, the ban list, or whatever other restrictions you can think of.

That's why Tribal thrives in non-cEDH, and people make funky decks around creatures people never would ordinarily consider.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Rosewater Blogatog issue with Hybrid cards
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-26 6:03 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
To answer your question Petruscaex, i do not personally want them or think they should be allowed.

The problem for me is that the cards are actually both. Those who want hybrid to exist cite their original design with statements like "Hybrid cards are meant to be either, both of their colors can, on their own, obtain such an effect!"

I agree that is how they were *supposed* to be. But they were a failed design in that regard. Unmake is a very black/white card in my opinion, very well designed. It could be printed as white only card, but there is virtually 0 black cards that can do that on their own. It is not a mono black card and i don't think someone playing an Erebos deck should be allowed to put Unmake into their deck. The card is black AND white no matter how you stretch your imagination or interpret the rules, i don't think a Thalia deck should be allowed to use it either.

Some are nicely designed but many are actually kind the opposite what Maro thinks of them in my opinion. Drain the Well and Poison the Well are two very fine cards, some of my favorites, and i think embody what hybrid is supposed to be. But then many are just impossible to digest under Maro interpretation of the format. So so many of them are clearly both colors and don't exist in either one color alone, and while i understand that Maro wanted them to be "this card can be green or it can be black, how cool!" they just don't work when you look at stuff like Doomgape. Yes a mono green deck can CAST it, but in a format where color determines allegiances, no i do not think Titania would ally or summon such a creature even if Doomgape himself is black but does not *require* black.

Idk, i'm ranting. TLDR Maro is just a goofball and sadly for him his concept of hybrid mana is mostly fail.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Rosewater Blogatog issue with Hybrid cards
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-26 6:45 am 

Joined: 2013-Jun-23 10:18 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Quite so, Sovarius. Despite the "designer intent" argument, Spitting Image is not a mono-green card, Augury Adept is not a mono-white card, and Duergar Hedge-Mage is most definitely not a mono-red or mono-white card. There are too many examples in the Commander cardpool where hybrid cards don't behave according to the guiding principle of hybrid (effects that could be done in either colour alone) for this point to cut any ice with me.

Beyond that, I agree with Mr Degradation that Rosewater's suggestion is aimed at gutting the idea of colour identity as a restriction on what can be put in your deck- easily the best part of the colour identity rules, in my opinion, and one I'd ideally like to be stricter (e.g. in regard to off-colour fetchlands).

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