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 Post subject: Public out cry request.
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-24 6:00 am 

Joined: 2013-Mar-15 8:39 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Canada, Ontario
On behalf of the majority of players that enjoy this format in my local card shops, (sorry my bad forgot that part, I'm human and make mistakes too)

I sincerely request that the rules committee reviews the topic of fast mana for potential bans or unbans. Under the following forum document http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12254 the sections of interest are:

* Interacts Poorly With the Structure of Commander.

* Creates Undesirable Game States.

* Problematic Casual Omnipresence.

* Produces Too Much Mana Too Quickly.

* Creates a Perceived High Barrier to Entry.

The cards requested to be reviewed for one or more of the previous reasons are:

1) Black Lotus.

2) Channel.

3) Fastbond.

4) All of the moxes such as chrome mox, mox diamond and ruby mox.

5) Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary.

6) Tolarian Academy.

7) mana vault.

8 ) grim monolith.

9) Burgeoning.

10) mana crypt.

11) Lion's Eye Diamond.

12) lotus petal.


Hopefully I didn't miss any. I urge the rules committee to come to one of two conclusions:

The first, begin that fast mana is perfectly acceptable and that all the cards listed above remain and more will be unbanned.

The second being that fast mana is making the format not fun, violates philosophy of the format and that some or more of the cards listed above will become banned or stay banned.

Personal note: Sorry if this creates more work for the RC committee. I just generally feel that with commander becoming more popular and people complaining so much about fast mana that something needs to be done. Either unban stuff and say we are ok with fast, expensive mana producing cards or ban them saying no this is a problem that needs to be solved since not everyone can run expensive, hard to find mana rocks. I'd be ok with black lotus and the moxes being unbanned. I live off the tears of my opponents :twisted:


Last edited by Bull on 2018-Jan-26 2:43 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Public out cry request.
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-24 6:13 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
OK seriously this time.

Bull only ever posts about banning some new card or whole catgeories of card. They clearly don't understand the format, the banning philosophy, or that their meta-game is not representative of the majority. Their posts are ill-informed, ill-conceived, often factually incorrect, and they don't listen to other people's arguments.

Seriously: Can we suspend their account? Please?

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"Degenerate, unfun decks generally come from degenerate, unfun players in my experience." - Cthulus Thrall

"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

"I'm happy to serve as a quote machine" - Sheldon


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 Post subject: Re: Public out cry request.
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-24 6:29 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
Bull wrote:


Yeah, Grim Monolith! 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Public out cry request.
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-24 7:38 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Kinda hoping they see past the "majority" of players that are unhappy and either 1. leave things alone or 2. unban stuff.

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Shabbaman wrote:
The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


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 Post subject: Re: Public out cry request.
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-24 11:31 am 

Joined: 2010-Mar-10 1:31 pm
Age: Dragon
Bull wrote:
On behalf of the majority of players that enjoy this format,


Am I part of a minority that enjoys the format as is?

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onlainari wrote:
trappedslider wrote:
EDIT: so if i somehow manged to get down to 1 life,played Repay in Kind followed by Decree of Annihilation then it owuld be bad evil juju?

That's not how magic works. You can't equate cards and situations linearly like that!


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 Post subject: Re: Public out cry request.
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-24 12:03 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Bull wrote:
On behalf of the majority of players that enjoy this format,
You just can't. You don't speak for the format. Please stop.

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sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: Public out cry request.
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-24 1:31 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
Viperion wrote:
OK seriously this time.

Seriously: Can we suspend their account? Please?

I'm only going to respond as though you are serious because you used the word 'seriously' twice:

No, Bull has done nothing to warrant a suspension. These forums are pretty relaxed when it comes to moderation, as you know from having been here for some time. I can imagine someone being suspended for harassment or blatantly innapropriate behavior, but not for simply being consistently 'wrong' and calling for changes.

If you are terribly annoyed by it, there is a "Friends & Foes" option in your User Control Panel; you can add Bull to your Foes and all future posts Bull makes will be hidden from you.
Bull wrote:
On behalf of the majority of players that enjoy this format

As others have said, no. You do not speak for the majority of players that enjoy this format.

And the title of this thread is just . . . weird. If there isn't already public outcry, 'requesting' it isn't likely to do anything. It would make sense in the context of bringing new information to light that the 'public' had not yet known, but that's not what this is. We all know that some fast mana is banned, and some isn't. You already started a thread about that. Why is this even a new thread?
Bull wrote:
Personal note: Sorry if this creates more work for the RC committee . . . with commander becoming more popular and people complaining so much about fast mana something needs to be done.

Don't worry, I'm sure the RC will be fine. Which "people complaining so much" are we talking about?


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 Post subject: Re: Public out cry request.
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-24 2:08 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
intreped wrote:
Viperion wrote:
OK seriously this time.

Seriously: Can we suspend their account? Please?

I'm only going to respond as though you are serious because you used the word 'seriously' twice:

No, Bull has done nothing to warrant a suspension. These forums are pretty relaxed when it comes to moderation, as you know from having been here for some time. I can imagine someone being suspended for harassment or blatantly innapropriate behavior, but not for simply being consistently 'wrong' and calling for changes.

If you are terribly annoyed by it, there is a "Friends & Foes" option in your User Control Panel; you can add Bull to your Foes and all future posts Bull makes will be hidden from you.

Yes, I'm serious, and yes, I realise that this sort of action isn't taken lightly. (Also I wasn't aware you were able to make those calls? Sounds like you can, from the tone)

I'm aware of the Friends and Foes list and Bull is already on it. I have been happily ignoring his posts for well over a year now. However, even with him on the foes list the topics he creates still show up, the posts he makes are still there (although hidden unless I click on them).

Image
Image

and I feel at this point, given the singular topic of all his posts "Ban something! I'm right! Why are they not doing something!" he is, at this point, trolling. He does not learn from the constant corrections the more patient members of this community give to him, and he even fails to respond to his own threads most of the time.

He's a troll and has no business being part of this community any longer (IMO, of course).

I have done all I can to remove Bull from my feed; it is no longer enough and I want him gone.

I realise that I have absolutely no power to enforce any of this (other than, perhaps, my good standing on these forums and the karma I may have built up over the years), but enough is enough, already.

Edited to add: I guess I'm just calling for a change ;) :P

_________________
"Degenerate, unfun decks generally come from degenerate, unfun players in my experience." - Cthulus Thrall

"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

"I'm happy to serve as a quote machine" - Sheldon


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 Post subject: Re: Public out cry request.
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-24 6:41 pm 

Joined: 2015-Dec-22 4:41 am
Age: Drake
I seem to recall there being two different topics about Silver border legality. No one bothered to merge those topics or lock one of them.

However...

this case has the cardinal difference of only involving one topic author for two topics about the same thing. Given this, I humbly suggest doing one of two things:

1. Lock the older topic and issue a warning.
2. Merge the topics and issue a warning.

Since we are relaxed about moderation and the "offense" is relatively minor, I think account suspension would be an overreaction.

I hope I'm not out of line by making these suggestions. It may be off topic, but I made my position on the topic clear on his last topic about fast mana.

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 Post subject: Re: Public out cry request.
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-24 10:22 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
Viperion wrote:
Yes, I'm serious, and yes, I realise that this sort of action isn't taken lightly. (Also I wasn't aware you were able to make those calls? Sounds like you can, from the tone)


You're right, it's not taken lightly though it has been taken in the past and one of the very few recepients was actually Bull.
The process is pretty simple: people complain, the subject is discussed, one of the RC members on the boards makes the call. Intreped can step up the process if he feels it's warranted.

Viperion wrote:
and I feel at this point, given the singular topic of all his posts "Ban something! I'm right! Why are they not doing something!" he is, at this point, trolling. He does not learn from the constant corrections the more patient members of this community give to him, and he even fails to respond to his own threads most of the time.

He's a troll and has no business being part of this community any longer (IMO, of course).

I have done all I can to remove Bull from my feed; it is no longer enough and I want him gone.

I realise that I have absolutely no power to enforce any of this (other than, perhaps, my good standing on these forums and the karma I may have built up over the years), but enough is enough, already.

Edited to add: I guess I'm just calling for a change ;) :P


Bolded to point out the irony of your turn of phrase! :D


MMLgamer wrote:
I seem to recall there being two different topics about Silver border legality. No one bothered to merge those topics or lock one of them.


Sorry about that, I did merge them in the Random Chatter. If a second thread about specific cards turns up in here, it generally gets left apart so as not to mix rules questions that veer off topic in with general set legality discussions. Click the "report post" if you feel merges are necessary and we'll take it from there.

We also generally don't merge new topics with buried topics but feel free to link to old discussions in your replies.

MMLgamer wrote:
However...

this case has the cardinal difference of only involving one topic author for two topics about the same thing. Given this, I humbly suggest doing one of two things:

1. Lock the older topic and issue a warning.
2. Merge the topics and issue a warning.


I specifically left the 0-mana artifacts & the fast mana discussions seperate because the use of 0-mana artifacts is very often build or strategy dependant, you can't just throw them into any deck and assume that you'll have the optimum opening hand to leverage them every game.

Fast mana is different because a good portion of the "offenders" can go into any deck.
The OP is also suggesting that some cards be considered for unbanning according to the stated criteria, which is not the same discussion at all.

MMLgamer wrote:
Since we are relaxed about moderation and the "offense" is relatively minor, I think account suspension would be an overreaction.

I hope I'm not out of line by making these suggestions. It may be off topic, but I made my position on the topic clear on his last topic about fast mana.


Launching discussion is never an offense. Other positions and how they are stated or defended or shoved down people's throats may be considered as such but the general rule is : Is the poster being an asshat?

While I may or may not agree with Bulls' points, or the necessity of rehashing an already well worn track, or even the semblence of entitlement or aura of representation he assumes vis a vis "The Community", he's not being an asshat and, as such, is free to initiate discussions in a calm and well considered manner.

_________________
Current decks:
Sydri's random pile of cards with "Artifact" on them
Scarab God Zombie Horde
Atraxa Superfriends
Yidris Eldrazi (4C Devoid)
Sissay Angel Oath
Wort's Goblin Conspiracy
Gonti's Mega-Bouncy Castle


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 Post subject: Re: Public out cry request.
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-25 8:15 am 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Orlando, Florida
I love that the majority of cards he called for to be banned are already banned because they cause problems.


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 Post subject: Re: Public out cry request.
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-25 9:19 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Dragon
Marit Lage wrote:
I love that the majority of cards he called for to be banned are already banned because they cause problems.

I think that's the point he's getting at: these are all fast mana cards, some are banned and some aren't, and the RC should decide to just ban all of them or ban none of them:

“people complaining so much about fast mana that something needs to be done. Either unban stuff and say we are ok with fast, expensive mana producing cards or ban them saying no this is a problem that needs to be solved since not everyone can run expensive, hard to find mana rocks”

.... But Bull doesn't speak for all of us (or any majority, or anyone but themselves), I don't know who all these people complaining are, and the RC doesn't actually have to think in those terms and can instead dice things up differently and not throw out absolutely all the fast mana cards. They can actually just have some of those cards banned and some not.

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Decks: Chaos colored dragons, Mathas, the Instigator (politics and mayhem).
Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


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 Post subject: Re: Public out cry request.
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-25 10:55 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I don't think suspension is necessarily a good idea, but I'm positive this is indeed a troll post.

Just to begin, there is no rational reason why Mana Vault, Grim Monolith, Chrome Mox, Mox Opal, Lion's Eye Diamond, Burgeoning, and Lotus Petal should ever be considered for banning if you're not going to throw in Sol Ring as well. And if you really want to curb fast mana, let's curb fast mana. Also throw in the Spirit Guide pair, Gemstone Caverns, Exploration, Dark Ritual, Jeweled Amulet, Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, Chancellor of the Tangle, Gaea's Cradle, the Peat Bog cycle, and the Dwarven Ruins cycle.

There's also the fact that none of the currently banned cards listed except maybe Channel are banned exclusively for being fast mana. I shouldn't even have to describe what exactly is wrong with the Power cards, and the others all have problems besides the mana deal. Fastbond is stupidly easy to combo with, Rofellos' general-ness means you'll always have access to him all game every game, and Tolarian Academy tends to warp decks. And unlike the majority of fast mana spells, the latter three actually get better as the game goes on. That last point was a large part of the reason Metalworker came off the list.

And finally, the tone and presentation of the list reek of trolling. Formatting errors, misnaming cards, pretentiously claiming to speak for "the majority of players", and ending an otherwise dour and seemingly "formal" request with a joke and smiley face. And to top it all off, Bull has repeatedly asked for cards to be banned/unbanned and has consistently demonstrated not understanding the philosophy despite having it patiently explained through dozens (maybe even hundreds at this point) of pages by several different users. I'm positive most of what I said in this post too is going to fall on deaf ears because several of the points I bring up have been covered.

(Also, not that this has anything to do with anything, but the tag for Channel is enormous. Does anyone know why/have a way to fix it?)

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 Post subject: Re: Public out cry request.
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-25 6:22 pm 

Joined: 2015-Dec-22 4:41 am
Age: Drake
zimagic wrote:
I specifically left the 0-mana artifacts & the fast mana discussions seperate because the use of 0-mana artifacts is very often build or strategy dependant, you can't just throw them into any deck and assume that you'll have the optimum opening hand to leverage them every game.

Fast mana is different because a good portion of the "offenders" can go into any deck.
The OP is also suggesting that some cards be considered for unbanning according to the stated criteria, which is not the same discussion at all.
I think you mean that they aren't the same topic at all. While there may have been some theoretical differences between the two threads, the discussion was the same, right down to the suggested solutions and rebuttals. I suppose that could be just a coincidence, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Public out cry request.
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-26 2:22 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
(Also, not that this has anything to do with anything, but the tag for Channel is enormous. Does anyone know why/have a way to fix it?)

That's a function of deckbox.org - the ones hosting the images.

I suppose you could come up with some CSS or something to fix it locally if you have something like the Stylish extension/add-on for your browser ... but the real fix is to get deckbox.org to update their image.


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