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 Post subject: Re: Thought Experiment: Maximum Price of Unbanned Cards
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-24 5:27 am 

Joined: 2013-Mar-15 8:39 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Canada, Ontario
kaldare wrote:
To put it simply... there is no maximum price. Nothing currently legal is getting banned because it increases in price. The point of banning Moxen/Lotus/etc for price/ubiquity reasons was simple... if those were legal when the format was getting off the ground, it would have been seen as a "Rich Person's Format" and likely would have died in it's infancy. And now that the format is established, there simply isn't any real incentive to *unban* something that could have a negative impact, and would most certainly only have a positive impact for at most a very tiny number of people.

On the other hand, there are players who obtained some of the cards on your list specifically *for* commander. Banning the cards doesn't really do anyone any good and does cause a great injustice to the people who obtained them for that reason.

To sum up... changing the status quo on Price/Ubiquity bannings is a big risk and has no real benefits. So it;s going to stay as it is, likely for as long as commander exists.


I generally feel that if someone is stacking their decks with the old $500+ cards generally people will start seeing the format as a rich persons format and will make potential new people want to avoid edh.

In my local game store I've talked to some of the new magic players (we had like 8-10 in the past few months) and brought up edh in the conversation. They were intimidated by the other players in the shop running things like chrome mox and mana crypt. They thought the format was interesting but overall declined the invitation to play stating something along the lines of they don't want to make deck that costs around $500 to be competitive enough to win at the shop. I brought up the starter edh decks and they said the given cards weren't good enough.

On the bright side 2 of them did pick up edh and I've been bringing a toned down deck (no fast mana and expensive cards that should be banned.) to avoid price scaring them away.

But hey, it's not like the decks that win the most are those with a fat wallet to back them up.


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 Post subject: Re: Thought Experiment: Maximum Price of Unbanned Cards
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-24 5:47 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
The best cards in the format of the some of the cheapest. (personally, all of the cards i find to the biggest piles of shit are not on the reserve list at all)

Do you agree or disagree, and why or why not?

Bull wrote:
But hey, it's not like the decks that win the most are those with a fat wallet to back them up.

I agree :)


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 Post subject: Re: Thought Experiment: Maximum Price of Unbanned Cards
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-24 8:59 am 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
bull wrote:
chrome mox and mana crypt.

They were intimidated by people running a card that's worth less then $20? That doesn't even make sense. Standard decks contain more expensive cards then Chrome Mox.

Your problem seems to be with your local metagame, not with the format in general.

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Current Commander Decks:
Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Stealing your opponent's degenerate cards is far more satisfying then playing your own.


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 Post subject: Re: Thought Experiment: Maximum Price of Unbanned Cards
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-07 3:13 am 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
Here's the problem- with the exception of Cradle (which has without doubt come up in the forums as a "ban x" thread-) None of these cards are actually all that powerful in the context of EDH- so their collectability is their main draw. They're flash, vanity. The Duals have been mostly replaced by Shocks, Tangos and Bicycles (which are much much cheaper) in allied color pairs (why Tangos, Bicycls and CIPT Fetches of the enemy pairs don't exist still is sortof beyond me.)

To be honest, I think Wizards IS too stingy about lands in Commander products (which to be fair, are themselves quite generous deals,) out of fear for secondary market backlash- but Fetches and Shocks are always in demand- and themselves aren't safe to reprint outside of "Masters" sets (which have a laundry list of issues-) and in the case of Legendary lands, they very rarely make sense to revisit- even if they are in demand (Wizards has been good about these and Odyssey filters in Commander product though, in absolute fairness.)

I don't think price should dictate the banlist- even though I feel that Gaea's Cradle is always worthy of ban consideration (I've seen so many janky gold bordered copies in EDH- which I find slightly irritating.) But Cradle aside, these are mostly vanity considerations.

What I do find concerning though, with the advent of time- is the relative speed it takes to assemble individual pieces for EDH decks at a reasonable pace these days. I've always stuck to the "collect as you go" method of EDH deck crafting- since I feel like Magic is best enjoyed without bulk purchases- even if that means each individual piece has a higher upfront cost (to a much much much higher entertainment EV.) My issue being, that in the last few years- the time it takes to reasonably put a good EDH deck together on $20 a week (accounting for pieces you begin the model with,) with occasional splurges has (in my experience,) has gone from about a month, to nearly four. That doesn't mean that insanely cheap EDH decks don't exist, but assembling the most basic pieces like a manabase (not even using power-) to make a deck play smoothly has become a much bigger issue. Academy Ruins went from being a curio I picked up- to being a week's worth of budget (a little more than a draft's worth-) and if I want an enemy colored fetch, it's 2 weeks budget (or a painful splurge.) Like, it's the point where I just don't want to play Red and Blue in the same EDH deck, because I do not want to go through the effort of getting a Scalding Tarn- the demand is too high, the supply is too low.

I think long term, the blowback of trying to tiptoe around the necessity to step on the second market's toes for player experience just a little bit- will probably hurt EDH more than other modes of play (where assembling over time, means lacking competitive viability- instead of janky or interesting substitutes;) and that itself will effect the player experience more than anybody would like it to.

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