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 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-May-20 2:05 pm 
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MMLgamer wrote:
Would you mind spelling it out a little further. I'm not quite following this line of argument for a few reasons which I know you'll be happy to address:

1. Cards outside the game have nothing to do with deckbuilding restrictions even if you bring them to the table with the intention of somehow using them.
2. Presenting 100 cards as your deck and then wishing for a 101st can't possibly be inherently disingenuous (or bullying according to Sheldon; wtf) if all players understand that the rules allow it (assuming wishing were allowed).
3. If the 100 card limit is only checked at the beginning of the game, it shouldn't matter if it becomes 101 in the middle of the game, unless the restriction somehow also applies to games begun as a result of restarting with Karn Liberated. Is that the case?

1. I agree cards outside the game have nothing to do with deckbuilding -- unless you bring them to the table with the intention on using them. If you include Living Wish, and then include a Wasteland and a Rishadan Port in your sideboard (or pile of cards "outside of the game") -- then you are bringing those extra cards with the intention of using them in the game. So you are bypassing the 100 card restriction.

Do we let people use any two legendary creatures as commanders? No - because choosing a single legendary creature for your commander is a restriction on building your deck (obvious exceptions like those with the 'Partner' keyword do exist, but they aren't relevant as they are specific exceptions that the rules allow.)

So, if we don't let you alter the intent on one deckbuilding rule, why should you be allowed to break it on another deckbuilding rule?

2) Sure it is. You've brought more than 100 cards to the table in that case. As I did clarify, "bringing 100 cards to the table" means that's all the cards you're going to use. Now suddenly you are using an extra card. How is that not wrong? Again, it's like saying that you have two commanders that your deck can use - why don't we allow that? Because nothing in the rules say you are allowed to do so. Same with wishing for a card outside of the game.

3) It's not checked at the beginning of the game. It's checked when people present their decks and reveal their commanders, etc. Thus Karn is fine. Having additional cards beyond your 100 cards that you wish for is presenting more than 100 cards. That seems to be the part you aren't grasping for some reason.


MMLgamer wrote:
The anti-wish side of this debate has some strong arguments behind it, but imo "it breaks the 100-card limit" is by far the weakest one because of its sheer arbitrariness.
What about it is arbitrary? I don't see anything about it being arbitrary.


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 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-May-20 3:00 pm 
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Joined: 2013-Oct-26 9:21 am
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Location: Xenia, OH, USA
Carthain wrote:
MMLgamer wrote:
The anti-wish side of this debate has some strong arguments behind it, but imo "it breaks the 100-card limit" is by far the weakest one because of its sheer arbitrariness.
What about it is arbitrary? I don't see anything about it being arbitrary.


I agree, it is far from arbitrary. It is fundamental to the structure of the format.

Wishboards break that structure, plain and simple.

They are ways to bypass the deck building rules in order to have more answers.

It makes your deck 100 cards + (number of wishboard cards - number of wish cards) which almost always is greater than 100. If for some reason you only had 1 card in your wishboard, why the hell are you running a wish in the first place? You're gonna have at least 1 more card in your board than you have number of wishes.

There is no explanation for wanting to run wishes except "I don't want to cut down to 100 cards"


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 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-May-21 11:07 am 
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Age: Hatchling
tgambitg wrote:
It makes your deck 100 cards + (number of wishboard cards - number of wish cards) which almost always is greater than 100.


So what? Setting aside what the cards themselves might be*, what measurable harm to the format is really created by an opponent playing with more than a 100 cards?

Also and besides, saying "because the rules say 100 cards only" without giving thought to the fact that this a thread about possibly changing the rules is an argument that completely misses the point.


*I understand the possibility of using wished for cards as a means to constantly have the correct silver bullet answers potentially leading to poor games, but that is not what this particular post is about.


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 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-May-21 11:25 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Plushie Dragon wrote:
So what? Setting aside what the cards themselves might be*, what measurable harm to the format is really created by an opponent playing with more than a 100 cards?

Also and besides, saying "because the rules say 100 cards only" without giving thought to the fact that this a thread about possibly changing the rules is an argument that completely misses the point.

I don't think that does miss the point, I think that IS the point. Yes its a rule, and you could change it. But it is a building restriction, and the format is buttressed by building restrictions. Just changing things like that without a real reason past 'its cool' would show measurable harm.

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 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-May-21 11:39 am 
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MRHblue wrote:
Just changing things like that without a real reason past 'its cool' would show measurable harm.


First, I never said "it's cool". Secondly, saying it would cause measurable harm and proving it are two different things.


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 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-May-21 12:34 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Plushie Dragon wrote:
So what? Setting aside what the cards themselves might be*, what measurable harm to the format is really created by an opponent playing with more than a 100 cards?

Within the confines of the current rules? Or are you saying if the rules are changed?

If the rules are changed to allow it -- then there's no problem. Within the confines of the current rules, It's comparable to cheating.

One of the defining factors of the format is the deckbuilding restrictions. And having a wishboard is just tossing that restriction aside.

Any other cards that ignore rules specifically state that they do so ('Partner' mechanic, or the 5 PWs that can be used as commanders for example.) The wish cards don't do that.

The objection to people playing more than 100 cards is that people are just putting wishes in their decks and thus bypassing that 100 card limit. There's nothing in the cards that say they allow you to do so -- so why should we tolerate that (without a pre-agreed-upon modification to the rules -- ie, a houserule)?


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 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-May-21 1:29 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Plushie Dragon wrote:
MRHblue wrote:
Just changing things like that without a real reason past 'its cool' would show measurable harm.
First, I never said "it's cool". Secondly, saying it would cause measurable harm and proving it are two different things.
That was a generic reason, not directed at you specifically. You can't "prove" measurable harm in a game without compiled data, so that means no change is a problem?

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sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-May-22 7:23 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
All this talk about bringing cards to the table... What if I put them in my pocket?

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 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-May-22 7:59 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
niheloim wrote:
All this talk about bringing cards to the table... What if I put them in my pocket?

But but.... you could bend them there!


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 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-May-22 10:45 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Dragon
Carthain wrote:
niheloim wrote:
All this talk about bringing cards to the table... What if I put them in my pocket?

But but.... you could bend them there!

They canonically do this in the Yugioh anime. With unsleeved cards. It's criminal. Don't be a criminal.

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Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


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 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-May-22 12:51 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
tgambitg wrote:
I agree, it is far from arbitrary. It is fundamental to the structure of the format.

The specific number is pretty arbitrary, there is little difference between a rule that says 101 and a rule that says 104. However once the rule is set at a number it is a rule, and much like the rule of having only one of each card, it is a set rule that defines the format and should be respected.

Plushie Dragon wrote:
So what? Setting aside what the cards themselves might be*, what measurable harm to the format is really created by an opponent playing with more than a 100 cards?

Also and besides, saying "because the rules say 100 cards only" without giving thought to the fact that this a thread about possibly changing the rules is an argument that completely misses the point.

Here is my argument then for outright banning all wishes. They would be utterly universal. Wishes enabling more than 100 cards is not the extent of the issue. The full issue is that wishes allow more than 100 cards whilst maintaining the consistency of a 100 card deck. There is no deck that would not be improved by the inclusion of all wishes within their colour identity (except maybe deathwish, maybe).

Wishes become the best thing you can draw, because they become the best answer for every situation, the utter ubiquity that would come from allowing them would meet the ban-list criteria in no time.

The only reason masterminds acquisition is not a widely played standard card is because it's too expensive (mana cost wise). You don't see wishes being played in competitive formats because they aren't legal in modern and most are too expensive for legacy/vintage. In a format where high mana cost is not a problem, they will become the best thing you can do.

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 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-May-23 3:42 am 

Joined: 2015-Dec-22 4:41 am
Age: Drake
Carthain wrote:
1. I agree cards outside the game have nothing to do with deckbuilding -- unless you bring them to the table with the intention on using them. If you include Living Wish, and then include a Wasteland and a Rishadan Port in your sideboard (or pile of cards "outside of the game") -- then you are bringing those extra cards with the intention of using them in the game. So you are bypassing the 100 card restriction.

Do we let people use any two legendary creatures as commanders? No - because choosing a single legendary creature for your commander is a restriction on building your deck (obvious exceptions like those with the 'Partner' keyword do exist, but they aren't relevant as they are specific exceptions that the rules allow.)

So, if we don't let you alter the intent on one deckbuilding rule, why should you be allowed to break it on another deckbuilding rule?
Except you're not talking about a deckbuilding restriction. A deckbuilding restriction and a "bring cards to the table" restriction are two different things. Same with deckbuilding restrictions and "cards intended for use" restrictions. Nothing you just said about wishing and "cards outside the game intended for use" is indicated in the rules of commander except maybe for Rule 13 which is being disputed in this topic, so your comparison makes no sense.

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 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-May-23 4:47 am 
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Sure it is a deckbuilding restriction -- it says it has to be 100 cards (including commander(s)).

How isn't that a deckbuilding restriction? And a deckbuilding restriction is tantamount to a "bring cards to the table" restriction. How are they different? If they're different, then you're implying that I can build a viable deck, but then bring a 60-card deck to play Commander with.

Lets work on that miscommunication before we go any further.


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 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-May-24 12:47 am 

Joined: 2015-Dec-22 4:41 am
Age: Drake
Carthain wrote:
Sure it is a deckbuilding restriction -- it says it has to be 100 cards (including commander(s)).

How isn't that a deckbuilding restriction? And a deckbuilding restriction is tantamount to a "bring cards to the table" restriction. How are they different? If they're different, then you're implying that I can build a viable deck, but then bring a 60-card deck to play Commander with.

Lets work on that miscommunication before we go any further.


A "deck" is defined by the rules of Magic as "The collection of cards a player starts the game with" and that "becomes that player's library". If cards are outside the game after a game starts, then they were not in your deck, and thus deckbuilding restrictions have nothing to do with them. I'm not sure what part of this is confusing.

If you are arguing that Commander's deckbuilding restriction should be a card count restriction, you should probably be arguing for the appropriate change since the rules don't really reflect what you're saying.

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 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-May-24 1:13 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
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There's two sides to this deckbuilding restriction thing I can see, both valid and accurate:

"It breaks the restriction": The format is defined by forcing you to choose only 100 cards you bring to the table for use. You can't have more or less. If you bring a wishboard, that is extra cards you bring to use during the game.

"It doesn't break the restriction": Your 100 cards in your library are separate to those in your wishboard. You've followed the restrictions for your library 100%.

I'm on the first side. To me, a 100-card deck with 5 wishes and 15 wishboard cards is functionally equivalent to being a 115 card deck, 5 of which are tutors. (With the caveat you'll never draw 15 of them normally during the course of a game, which is functionally just like them being eternally in the bottom half of your deck.)

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