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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-11 3:54 am 

Joined: 2013-Jun-23 10:18 am
Age: Elder Dragon
cryogen wrote:
So why make up a better card? It doesn't forward this topic at all. Why should Awesome Gifts be banned? "Because Gifts is.". How about just simply, "why is gifts still banned?"


Because I thought (wrongly, as it turns out), thinking about Awesome Gifts makes it more clear that Gifts doesn't meet any of the banlist criteria.

As I see it, Awesome Gifts doesn't meet any of them aside from maybe Problematic Omnipresence, and is straight better than Gifts despite functioning in an identical way (search for four, two in hand and two in graveyard). So we can deduce things about Gifts by comparing it to a clearer example of the same thing.

The problem, of course, is that no real-world analogues to Gifts exist. Doomsday is close, as you suggested, but is quite different in functionality and has basically no "fair" uses whereas Gifts does. Hence the need to invent a fictitious better Gifts to serve as that comparison.

In hindsight, this isn't a very helpful way of making the point since it's less obvious than I thought that Awesome Gifts doesn't meet the banlist criteria. Forget I said anything.

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Daretti, Scrap Savant (Machine Red)
Sigarda, Heron's Grace (Innistrad's Industrial Revolution)
X (The Spy Who Un'd Me)
Rubinia Soulsinger (Polymorphs)
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper (Shadowborn Apostles)
Mathas, Fiend Seeker (So Me To You)


Last edited by Swmystery on 2017-Nov-11 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-11 6:25 am 
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MRHblue wrote:
specter404 wrote:
Swiss army knives have no place in commander.
Strongly disagree. Modal cards, tutors and such are exactly the types of things needed to combat multiple opponents of varying skill and deck power level.


I just want to point out:.

- The format does allow tutors, which are sort of Swiss army knives.
- it also allows Swiss army knives that can do lots of different things. See especially: the "choose two" commands, the escalate modals, etc.

Both of these are true.

However this one is a multi-function tutor (by searching up multiple cards) at an extremely low price and high level of effectiveness compared to most other multi-card tutors that gives you absolutely any kind of cards. It's sort of both of those bullet points at once.

The fact it's extremely Swiss army knifey (moreso than most other tutors around its mana cost range), and does its Swiss army knifeness via tutoring (where the RC wants to discourage presence of tutor cards in the format) is worth considering as an issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-11 8:30 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Carthain wrote:
Why are people ignoring the "Interacts poorly with the format"?

The card is balanced with the mindset that most people play with 60 card decks, and usually 4 copies of a card. That reduces the power of it, so that people have to often consciously alter their deck in order to fully reach the power that card can provide.

... In Commander, they don't have to otherwise weaken their deck (reducing redundancy) because the rules of the format require that your deck already be that way.

Because multiple other cards have that exact stipulation, and none of the others are banned. By that distinction Intuition should be banned. Powerful cards keep getting unbanned, and rightfully so. I expect this to take some time, but eventually relics of the past will be updated.

spacemonaut wrote:
The fact it's extremely Swiss army knifey (moreso than most other tutors around its mana cost range), and does its Swiss army knifeness via tutoring (where the RC wants to discourage presence of tutor cards in the format) is worth considering as an issue.
This just isnt accurate. Demonic Tutor costs half, guarantees your choice, and does not reveal your choice. It cant be stopped by GY hate nor does it take interaction or politics into account.

niheloim wrote:
Would I trust myself with gifts? Yes. I love powerful cards that let me do silly things.
Would I want the guys I play with to run gifts? No! They still want to win over most other things. Gifts would be a combo piece.
I want it. But I'm not willing to let it out of prison yet.
What happened when Protean Hulk was unbanned?

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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-11 10:52 am 
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MRHblue wrote:
spacemonaut wrote:
The fact it's extremely Swiss army knifey (moreso than most other tutors around its mana cost range), and does its Swiss army knifeness via tutoring (where the RC wants to discourage presence of tutor cards in the format) is worth considering as an issue.
This just isnt accurate. Demonic Tutor costs half, guarantees your choice, and does not reveal your choice. It cant be stopped by GY hate nor does it take interaction or politics into account.


Demonic Tutor gives you only one card, not 2-4.

The fact it tutors up a whole 2-4 things for you to do and not just one like most tutors was my point.

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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-12 1:00 am 
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MRHblue wrote:
What happened when Protean Hulk was unbanned?

In my meta it was a negative that led to long-ass turns that ultimately ended in everyone dying. Unbanning Hulk was IMO a poor decision.

Also I'd like to point out that I was playing this format when Gifts was legal, and I can't think of a single time it did not lead to game over when successfully resolved. People simply did not use it to tutor 4 powerful cards - it was always used for getting "I win".

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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-12 3:06 am 
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MRHblue wrote:
Carthain wrote:
Why are people ignoring the "Interacts poorly with the format"?
Because multiple other cards have that exact stipulation, and none of the others are banned. By that distinction Intuition should be banned.

Never did I say that this was the only reason it was banned. Thus, saying that Intuition fits it, therefore gifts should be fine as well is a logical leap of BS. It's also pretty disingenuous. You're basically saying that because Intuition is not banned, but can fit into the "interacts poorly with the format" that this particular bannable condition is all null and void, simply because intuition fits it, and isn't banned.

Also - Intuition hasn't shown (that I've seen or heard of) itself to be problematic to the format. Gifts has (and was thus banned for it.)

Sure the two cards are similar - but apparently different enough that people didn't just jump to using Intuition when Gifts was banned. I think this part alone is pretty telling why the two shouldn't be considered linked at all when looking at what should be banned or not.


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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-12 3:55 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
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Sid the Chicken wrote:
In my meta it was a negative that led to long-ass turns that ultimately ended in everyone dying. Unbanning Hulk was IMO a poor decision.

Also I'd like to point out that I was playing this format when Gifts was legal, and I can't think of a single time it did not lead to game over when successfully resolved. People simply did not use it to tutor 4 powerful cards - it was always used for getting "I win".
A meta that does the most broken stuff, did broken stuff. News at 11. I don't deny these types of games would play Gifts brokenly, but I doubt its faster than other junk they do. Is that honestly the sort of meta you think the ban list should be factoring?
Carthain wrote:
Never did I say that this was the only reason it was banned. Thus, saying that Intuition fits it, therefore gifts should be fine as well is a logical leap of BS. It's also pretty disingenuous. You're basically saying that because Intuition is not banned, but can fit into the "interacts poorly with the format" that this particular bannable condition is all null and void, simply because intuition fits it, and isn't banned.
No, I was simply saying thats the reason that particular reason didnt apply to Gifts. Intuition isnt the only card that uses that particular stipulation, and none of them are banned.

Quote:
Also - Intuition hasn't shown (that I've seen or heard of) itself to be problematic to the format. Gifts has (and was thus banned for it.)

Sure the two cards are similar - but apparently different enough that people didn't just jump to using Intuition when Gifts was banned. I think this part alone is pretty telling why the two shouldn't be considered linked at all when looking at what should be banned or not.
No doubt Gifts is significantly stronger as a card, but power isn't a ban criteria. It was problematic when combo was problematic, and when combo was partially banned for. That time has passed.

I don't expect this to happen next ban announcement, or even soon. Just like Metalworker and Staff of Domination (both of which I also advocated a change for) these things take time. I get that, and appreciate the discussions.

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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-12 4:37 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
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Do people not know what gifts does? I mean seriously do people appreciate how important the words "With different names" is to the rules application of that card?
MRHblue wrote:
Talking about what Gifts can do in Modern is much less useful to this discussion than discussions of other cards in the context of EDH. No one is questioning the power of Gifts, just its worthiness to be banned.

I bring up my modern experience because the card has errata, and I often have to explain the significant of the wording. Intuition requires you to search for 3 cards, exactly 3 cards and no less, which means it's only real effective use, it's use during it's standard heyday was to act as a tutor, search for 3 copies of the same card.

The different names part is meant to be a downside in gifts, it is meant to constrain your deck building choices by forcing you to include a variety of different cards with similar effects in order to be able to get the effect you need, rather than including 4 copies of the best version, which is more efficient deck building. However commander decks are already built like gifts decks, with a variety of the same card under different names, thats where the interacts badly criteria comes in, because the rules of our format remove the restriction.

In addition the different names criteria add another aspect to the card, because you can fail to find. Demonic tutor cant do what gifts does, diabolic revelations cant do what gifts does, because in addition to tutoring up whatever you need, gifts can also be a straight up double entomb, a single entomb, or it can play like intuition.

Intuition cant put craterhoof and rites into your graveyard, because your opponent always gets to choose one card to put into your hand. Because I have played a gifts deck I can tell you that the card says your opponent gets a choice, but when you put the cards on the table they never really do.

In modern we build a gifts deck, but in commander, every deck is a gifts deck, and all the cards that keep being compared to it, FoF, DT, tooth and nail, intuition, entomb, they are all like gifts, the problem is gifts is also like ALL OF THEM, each one of them is a fine good powerful card by itself, but when one card can be any of them it's a problem.

I may be wrong, but I really struggle to believe those advocating it's return have played this card to any significant degree, so get your play groups to try it out, I think I might get a few people to let me put it into a couple decks as well, and just try to tell me it isn't the best draw every time.

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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-13 12:46 am 
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MRHblue wrote:
No, I was simply saying thats the reason that particular reason didnt apply to Gifts. Intuition isnt the only card that uses that particular stipulation, and none of them are banned.

Wow you're making a couple of huge (and incorrect) assumptions here.

1) This part is a contributing factor. Not the sole reason.
2) You continue to argue that this particular criteria for banning isn't and won't ever be an actual criteria because some cards that fall into it aren't banned.

It's like you've made up your mind and aren't even bothering with the pretense of listening to what others have to say.

MRHblue wrote:
...and appreciate the discussions.

You're not discussing though. You're just speaking past everyone else, assuming that you are correct.


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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-13 6:36 am 
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MRHblue wrote:
Because multiple other cards have that exact stipulation,


Which?


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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-13 11:04 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Carthain wrote:
Wow you're making a couple of huge (and incorrect) assumptions here.

1) This part is a contributing factor. Not the sole reason.
2) You continue to argue that this particular criteria for banning isn't and won't ever be an actual criteria because some cards that fall into it aren't banned.
Can you clarify for me? You are saying 'interacts poorly' is only part of the reason you think it is correctly banned, yes? If yes, what are the others?

I am merely explaining why I don't see that specific criteria as applicable to this card. I don't see it as a sole issue, nor do I think Gifts can't be ban worthy if it fails this single test.

Quote:
It's like you've made up your mind and aren't even bothering with the pretense of listening to what others have to say...You're not discussing though. You're just speaking past everyone else, assuming that you are correct.
I am sorry that's the position I am getting across. I do admit I have made up my mind, as have you. To me, we are discussing what brought us to those conclusions. Because I don't agree with your conclusion, I am not discussing?
papa_funk wrote:
MRHblue wrote:
Because multiple other cards have that exact stipulation,

Which?

Realms Uncharted
Saheeli Rai
Three Dreams
Uncage the Menagerie

Now obviously none of these have the power of Gifts. I am merely saying 'X cards with different names' does not make a card 'interact poorly' with the format to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-13 1:11 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
MRHblue wrote:
Realms Uncharted
Saheeli Rai
Three Dreams
Uncage the Menagerie

Now obviously none of these have the power of Gifts. I am merely saying 'X cards with different names' does not make a card 'interact poorly' with the format to me.

This is why you should not have dismissed my discussion of the modern applications of this card. If you had thought about how this card is used there, you would understand why gifts is different, "fail to find" is a GOOD THING for gifts.

You almost never intend to FtF on those other cards, the different names part is a downside for normal constructed formats and blank text for commander, but for gifts the intended "downside" is actually a bonus because it adds utility that cards of it's ilk do not have.

So in the case of the other cards, the text "different names" does not interact poorly, because it is effectively meaningless in our format, in the case of gifts however it is not only meaningful, but essential for the card to operate fully and pushes it across to interacts poorly.

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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-13 2:20 pm 
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MRHblue wrote:
Can you clarify for me? You are saying 'interacts poorly' is only part of the reason you think it is correctly banned, yes? If yes, what are the others?

Because it also seems like it's a fun card and perfect for the format, but actually isn't. It alters the deckbuilding of players (in that they add a whole new colour to their deck so they can use that card*)

You're simply saying that "it was banned because it was a combo piece and we don't do that anymore." Except, I don't feel that's not the only thing that caused it to be banned. You can quote what they said at the time of the banning all you like - but that doesn't mean that's the whole picture, only what they feel could be justified without causing an uproar at the time.

MRHblue wrote:
To me, we are discussing what brought us to those conclusions. Because I don't agree with your conclusion, I am not discussing?

No, you (were) simply dismissing. That's not a discussion.

MRHblue wrote:
Now obviously none of these have the power of Gifts. I am merely saying 'X cards with different names' does not make a card 'interact poorly' with the format to me.

Interestingly - that's not the argument that was put forth (at least by me.) I never said "it requires X different card names, therefore it interacts badly with the format." So, while not a straw-man, you are over simplifying the argument and that does you a disservice (as you can't accurately discuss things.)

Let me ask you this: Why is Sundering Titan banned (and related, why isn't this something that you've said should come off the ban list?)


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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-13 2:55 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
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Are people ignoring the cool things you can do with Gifts that i listed? I mentioned Delirium and Spell Mastery, but i also forgot Delve and Dredge that are also new, as well as 2 more Flashback sets. I hope i can take that as implicit agreement.

zimagic wrote:
Where do you draw the line with cards that are so efficient that they are essentially a single stepping-stone to the end-game? This is undercosted, the wrong speed and bootstraps players into a winning position from no-where.


It's only this if you build your deck to do this, and then choose to do this on resolution. You cannot do this if you are not trying.

None of my casual and regular power level decks can even 'just win'.

zimagic wrote:
It's a hyper-efficient "winning" card and it's great in formats where winning is the only goal. This is not that format.


It's excellence in other formats can't possibly be a consideration though, right? And if this really a bar to legality then it would be likely that other cards could make an appearance for being very powerful and total garbage to play against if you aren't hypercompetitive.

zimagic wrote:
A certain amount of hand-holding on one card like GU sends a message about how you should orient yourself when you're building. For us fans of Gifts, that's an unfortunate cost of enjoying this format.

The RC is using Gifts to send a message and, considering all they have communicated on their view of the format, it's a fair choice to retain Gifts on the ban list.


Being public about this opinion seems the better place to make suggestions than the banlist. There is no shortage of uproar that Ad Nauseam destroys games on the spot, for example. This is a shoddy way of managing a banlist and causes the kinds of arguments that start "well card X is similar to card Y because they both require a certain deckbuilding choice and both are absurdly powerful when resolved in those decks and can end the game on the spot".

zimagic wrote:
Why is the ban list not longer then? Well, it could be about 50-100 cards longer quite easily. Do people want a hyper-regulated format or do people want to assume the choices they make about how they want to play the game?


I'm not 100% sure the point you are trying to make with the banlist numbers. You could ban 600 cards. Or not. Surely there are not 50-100 cards that are worthy of a ban though.

We may all disagree on what cards deserve a ban, but i think we unfortunately don't all agree that the banlist should be consistent rather than sometimes suggestive.

specter404 wrote:
Ok we really need to put the comparisons between Gifts and T&N to bed. I understand why some people believe they are comparable, both are tutor effects with the capacity to tutor a win and end the game, but that is where the comparisons end.


For what it's worth and/or to be fair, the comparison seems to be because some of the problem of Gifts is "it can essentially end the game on it's own, cards that essentially end the game on their own should be banned".

It's also not like the color green does not ramp, and a fair portion of unfun-ly destroyed casual games are destroyed by "i attempt to resolve T&N". So i sort of understand the appeal and have argued from a similar or same position (more so Ad Naus though).

specter404 wrote:
Now I dont know what your collective experiences are with this card, but as I mentioned above my main modern deck for a long time was Gifts, both 4C and UW, and the deck is called gifts because it is the card you always want. It often was the game-ender by fetching unburial rites +iona/elesh, but it was also the tool box, getting a discard/land destruction package, getting a counterspell suit, or a wrath suit, or just getting more card draw plus another gifts.


I think it was said by someone else that it's modern play isn't suuuuper relevant. But the things you said can be done with Gifts can be done with Intuition as well. And i am not arguing Intuition should or should not be banned (it shouldn't), but that this description you are giving does not seem to be a reason why it is banned and does not seem a valid reason to base one on.

The deck is called Gifts because you play the card Gifts Ungiven, and the card is called Gifts Ungiven because your opponent selects the gifts that are not given. Printing so many identical and very very slightly different cards is the only reason you can 'get whatever you want'.

specter404 wrote:
Swiss army knives have no place in commander.

Say it ain't so! BLAH BLAH BLAH I'M NOT LISTENING :p

Carthain wrote:
The problem with your opinion there - is unless you expand on it, it's no different than saying you think the format should be played only while the players are wearing hats.

Feel free to expand on why you feel that way though - could make for some good discussion.

I didn't meant to gloss over this and now it's been 3 pages, but i wasn't able to finish my thoughts last time i posted. My post after this, though, entails some of that reasoning as did this one above. I don't want to elaborate too far beyond that since its definitely a very different topic.

Swmystery wrote:
Imagine the following hypothetical card:

Awesome Gifts Ungiven:

I understand where you are going with this, but i can also see why others did not (or did, but disagreed).

Notably, Sheldon has said of a couple cards (i believe a couple, but Protean Hulk at a minimum) that 'if it were printed today we don't know that it would be banned'.

Carthain wrote:
Why are people ignoring the "Interacts poorly with the format"?

The card is balanced with the mindset that most people play with 60 card decks, and usually 4 copies of a card.


That just makes it work the way it would work in EDH anyway. It's drawback has nothing to do with us, it should just be banned or legal based on it's function. Tainted Pact doesn't really really require us to build in a totally different manner (but it does if you want to play 2 copies in Vintage or Legacy) and it is legal regardless of that fact.

Carthain wrote:
As for the ridiculous example about "Awesome Gifts Ungiven" -- yes, that would be banned, for the same reasons Gifts is already banned.


Can this actually be known? Gifts is banned for 'problematic omnipresent casual presence' or what not. If it were a new card, you couldn't already know if it was problematic or omnipresent.

niheloim wrote:
Would I want the guys I play with to run gifts? No! They still want to win over most other things. Gifts would be a combo piece.


Merely curious;

Do you want Ad Nauseam to be banned?

T&N?

Intuition?

Necropotence?

These can all be used to win without regard to fair play or fun and what not. These can all be absurdly powerful and win the turn they resolve or the next. Their optimal play in competitive decks absolutely ruin games for casuals. They are all primarily 'self policed' through 'social contracts'. They all have legitimate 'value plays' if you so desire to build/play suboptimally.

niheloim wrote:
But I'm not willing to let it out of prison yet.


This might be the most confusing i've heard in this thread. When would you be? Gifts has been banned for 8 years. Since that time so many more combo hosers have been printed. Stranglehold, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Containment Priest, Rest in Peace, Leonin Arbiter. Take my 4 examples to mean a dozen reasonable inclusions. What is new that was printed in the realm of combo since Gifts? The most interesting thing is Noxious Revival, but Gifts piles are seemingly not any stronger than before. You can now Flash/Protean Hulk/Regrowth/Revival for the least mana intensive combo (but requires a very specific deck and is more or less a 9 card combo so i can't see why we would use that as a reason not to unban anyway).

spacemonaut wrote:
Demonic Tutor gives you only one card, not 2-4.

The fact it tutors up a whole 2-4 things for you to do and not just one like most tutors was my point.


In keeping with the spirit of checking other's honesty (to the best of our erring and biased human minds can muster), i have to disagree.

You get 2 cards maximum off of Gifts. If you tool around with a graveyard deck, then hooray, your deck has extra uses for this card.

If you are getting 2 cards you want and 2 recursion, you are still just getting 2 cards in a very roundabout cast-three-spells kind of way.

specter404 wrote:
Do people not know what gifts does? I mean seriously do people appreciate how important the words "With different names" is to the rules application of that card?


This is why the card was costed at 4 mana, yes. But we shouldn't be looking at it's restriction. Only whether or not it's broken here. Realms Uncharted is worded this was and is clearly not broken.

I know what Gifts does but i think my last post of all it's interesting features went under the radar.

I kind of think the people against Gifts are giving an example of how it can accidentally break games. Seems people just keep repeating "i played 10 years ago, people won games", "power level power level", "different names".

No one is describing it's application beyond a vague measure of power and how their opponents (or selves) used it to combo off.

specter404 wrote:
In addition the different names criteria add another aspect to the card, because you can fail to find.


Not to be detracting from your point or be overly nitpicky, but you don't fail to find. You are just allowed to select 0-2 cards if you want.

specter404 wrote:
Demonic tutor cant do what gifts does, diabolic revelations cant do what gifts does, because in addition to tutoring up whatever you need, gifts can also be a straight up double entomb, a single entomb, or it can play like intuition.


You can't tutor what you need and double entomb, because your opponent choose. If you are not selecting 4 of the 'same' or a combo/recursion, then you can't reliably "entomb and demonic tutor" unless you already have other tools in your hand.

Double Entomb for 4 mana at instant is not broken.

specter404 wrote:
Intuition cant put craterhoof and rites into your graveyard, because your opponent always gets to choose one card to put into your hand.


Faithless Looting because this is already 4 colors?

I mean the worst you can do with Gifts is multiple colors anyway.

You just pick 2 creatures you want plus Rites and then you get one of them for 4 mana and the other into your hand.

Carthain wrote:
Let me ask you this: Why is Sundering Titan banned (and related, why isn't this something that you've said should come off the ban list?)


I don't see how these are related. Titan can stop you and others from playing the game, you don't have a choice but to destroy lands, in multiplayer it means you can probably blow up 5 lands you don't control which is probably better than Armageddon types if you want a beater that kind of protects itself.

Unlike Gifts, we don't have new tools of protecting lands and people still play basics (or should). We have... Terra Eternal and Ramunap Excavator.

And not for nothing, but RC has also used "it's on a body" as another reason a card can be scary, due to cloning, cheating into play, stealing, reanimating and devolving into feuds over who has one.

Wholly different no?

Why would he have to argue for Titan's unbanning to get a point across about Gifts?


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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-13 3:49 pm 

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Sovarius, I'm not sure my main point has come across to you. It is this:
Gifts is not broken because of the individual things it can do, it is broken because it can do all of them.

When I say it can be a tutor and it can be an entomb, I am meaning it has the flexibility to be either as required. It is not the parts, but their sum that becomes a problem. Your response, and others like it so far, take each of the things that gifts can do, and says "Yes, it can X but so can Y, Y isn't too powerful so neither is gifts".

Gifts is a split card akin to who/what/when/where/why, but the parts are entomb, demonic tutor, intuition, tooth and nail/ad nauseum, fact or fiction.

Each card on it's own is fine, being all of them is not.

Quote:
This is why the card was costed at 4 mana, yes. But we shouldn't be looking at it's restriction. Only whether or not it's broken here. Realms Uncharted is worded this was and is clearly not broken.

Firstly Realms Uncharted is fine so gifts is fine is the same as saying sylvan scrying is fine so demonic tutor is fine. Land vs Card is just not comparable.
Second The different names part, and I'll say it again, IS NOT a downside, it is a bonus. If those words were not on the card, we would not be having this discussion, because the card would never have been changed from it's original printing.

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Last edited by specter404 on 2017-Nov-13 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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