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 Post subject: Re: Is still allowed to have a sideboard?
AgePosted: 2017-Oct-22 9:58 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
I'm with P_F on this one - it seems very suspicious that a counterspell deck could actually stop everything 3 opponents tried.

It's also very suspicious that a Pyroblast would actually help that much - it's a single answer. I mean, this guy that's countering everything will just counter the pyroblast with his apparently limitless supply of counterspells.

Playing a control deck in a multi-player setting is very much about knowing when to pull the trigger on a counterspell and when to let something resolve. If this guy was able to do this, then he's a skilled player who will probably make your sideboard cards look silly anyways.

Lastly, if YOU get the "right" to a sideboard, then HE should get the "right" to a sideboard, which means he can add either answers to your narrow hosers or things that just flat-out stack the deck against you. Asserting a need for sideboards is basically inviting an arms race.

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 Post subject: Re: Is still allowed to have a sideboard?
AgePosted: 2017-Oct-22 10:29 am 

Joined: 2017-Oct-19 12:02 am
Age: Drake
Sid the Chicken wrote:
I'm with P_F on this one - it seems very suspicious that a counterspell deck could actually stop everything 3 opponents tried.

It's also very suspicious that a Pyroblast would actually help that much - it's a single answer. I mean, this guy that's countering everything will just counter the pyroblast with his apparently limitless supply of counterspells.

Playing a control deck in a multi-player setting is very much about knowing when to pull the trigger on a counterspell and when to let something resolve. If this guy was able to do this, then he's a skilled player who will probably make your sideboard cards look silly anyways.

Lastly, if YOU get the "right" to a sideboard, then HE should get the "right" to a sideboard, which means he can add either answers to your narrow hosers or things that just flat-out stack the deck against you. Asserting a need for sideboards is basically inviting an arms race.


After sideboard, I played a very different game against mono blue, those single answers in my Kaalia deck are just what I need, to go for the kill with Kaalia of the vast + Rakdos the defiler or Master of cruelties or my favorite against mono-blue Iona, shield of emeria


I think sideboards are fair play for anyone, If I have access to SB he does too as you said.

In modern we have 15 SB cards, that means 25% of the deck, in EDH if we can have only 10means we can change 10% of the deck.

If we don't count lands , in modern those 15 cards represents in an average deck the 35% of the deck being changed while in EDH those 10 cards without lands represents in an average deck (35 lands out of 99) 15% of the deck so.. doesn't seem so unfair

And because in EDH is a singleton, we cant side in 4 copies of a card like we do in modern, in modern if I go against a dredge deck in my UB Faeries you can make sure I will add 4 leyline of the void and mulligan until I have one in my starting hand, in EDH that is just not an option


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 Post subject: Re: Is still allowed to have a sideboard?
AgePosted: 2017-Oct-22 2:07 pm 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
You're kind of explaining why sideboards are useless in EDH yourself...

It's a singleton format, the sideboard size is too small to be relevant, you're highly unlikely to even see any sideboarded cards in any given game.

If something like Akroma is too bad for mainboard, it's too bad for sideboard. A mono blue player will already have answers for Iona mainboard as well as things like maze of ith and other utility lands to stop Akroma mainboard. Even if they don't, it's still 8 turns to dig for answers or the win... given your supposed 0 spells resolving (or at least sticking) in a non green deck, you're looking at turn 10+ before you can hard cast it so 18 turns is plenty of time for a blue deck to just win.

If you want to beat problematic decks, you have to include cards to deal with them main board. You need redundancy of effects so you'll actually see an answer. The 2-3 cards you can include to hose a given archetype in your side board is not going to have any real effect on your power level against the stated deck. Sure, every 3-4 games you might do a little better against them but he can also side board against your hate to switch from heavy counters to heavy bounce or whatever else is going to wreck your meta. It sounds like the blue player is just a better player (at least than your friends) because it is literally is impossible to counter everything three players does against you unless he's left alone long enough to set up.

Kaalia isn't really a good deck to play against control unless you are going hard on stax and land destruction which it doesn't sound like you are. He can literally just counter or kill your first cast of kaalia and then whatever else you play to annoy him since most the relevant kaalia targets are too expensive to hard cast with any regularity. Basically Kaalia never swings, Iona/Boil/Price/Grid/etc get countered and everything else can resolve so he can save responses for the other two players that aren't very strong to begin with. Once you get to the point where you can hard cast threats he's also likely to a point where he can just control everything.

Sideboarding isn't going to help you against this player. metagaming in the main, better threat assessment (for the whole meta), and even just talking to the guy about how obnoxious his deck is will all do far more to help you than trying to force everyone to use the optional sideboard.


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 Post subject: Re: Is still allowed to have a sideboard?
AgePosted: 2017-Oct-23 4:52 pm 

Joined: 2015-Apr-23 11:27 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
Hmm, "Finely tuned Kaalia deck", are you the infamous Evil Greg perhaps :-)

Okay, on topic. We allow sideboards, purely because some people in our groups have been experimenting with wish cards, like Burning Wish. It didn't seem fair to allow someone to fetch just about anything, so we implemented a '15 card sideboard is allowed' rule. I believe at the time we looked it up, it wasn't exactly a rule, but there was some history.

However, sideboarding after every one presented their commander is not done. If you sideboard, you do it before every one picks a deck, and you sit there and take the verbal abuse for stalling the game.

I think right now we only have two players who regularely sideboard, usually it's to adjust their deck to the meta. These guys are in really cutthroat groups at work, and tone their decks down a bit for our weekend games. I'm not even sure if this could be considered 'sideboarding' really, they just have some cards they swap in or out depending on the power level of the group.


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 Post subject: Re: Is still allowed to have a sideboard?
AgePosted: 2017-Oct-24 12:22 am 

Joined: 2017-Oct-19 12:02 am
Age: Drake
I change my deck acording the "meta"

If I play with my friends I never use any combo (they just hate infinite combos) so I remove every piece of combo my deck has

If I play against combo decks I will add every single piece of my combos back to the deck.

And If I am against a monoblue be sure Ill side those cards in.


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 Post subject: Re: Is still allowed to have a sideboard?
AgePosted: 2017-Oct-24 3:17 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
I would trust myself to use a Sideboard.

If a group is sufficiently large enough it can happen that rogue decks appear in numbers that cannot reliably (I use the term loosely) be handled by a single deck list. Sometimes you might need the chance at a really niche card that you wouldn't otherwise run.

You also can have the case where a rogue deck can be completely hosed by certain cards you're running. I remember Karn getting hosed more than once because everyone was running Vandalblast or Fracturing Gust. A sideboard lets you take out the hosers that ruin games for the niche decks.

Do I trust others to use a sideboard though? Not really. Its been my experience that few players are really playing the game for everyone to have fun the way I do.

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 Post subject: Re: Is still allowed to have a sideboard?
AgePosted: 2017-Oct-24 10:52 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
alexev wrote:
Or we can just sideboard those 3 cards and have a chance of fighting.


I didnt read a lot after this post, mostly because I should be working and the posts were becoming quite long, so sorry if this has already been addressed.

If it is a recurring problem, then play the hate cards in the main. Pyro/Red blast have enough use that they will be playable more often than not. Do you play graveyard hate in your deck? You should be, because if you play against a deck that relies on the yard you will need it.

It's about meta-gaming, playing to your group, changing your build to combat their plans, so that they have to change their build to combat yours, and around the cycle goes, which is part of the joy of having a regular group, each week they present you a puzzle and you have to try to solve it.

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 Post subject: Re: Is still allowed to have a sideboard?
AgePosted: 2017-Oct-24 11:49 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I'm going to add my skepticism to papa_funk's and others - even if the blue player was drawing all the cards and taking all the turns, they still have limited mana and most counterspells cost mana(Rewind, Decree of Silence, Force of Will, Pact of Negation (and even that doesn't really count) being the exceptions I can think of off the top of my head). There's no way one blue deck can keep three other decks off the table for an entire game.

Added to that I'll add my support to the guys who say "talk to the blue player" - if one player is making the game miserable for the other three, that's something that needs to be sorted out among the group.

Having said that, if I was playing against your Kaalia deck and you dropped Master of Cruelties I'd be having the same conversation with you ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Is still allowed to have a sideboard?
AgePosted: 2017-Oct-24 10:12 pm 

Joined: 2017-Oct-19 12:02 am
Age: Drake
Viperion wrote:
I'm going to add my skepticism to papa_funk's and others - even if the blue player was drawing all the cards and taking all the turns, they still have limited mana and most counterspells cost mana(Rewind, Decree of Silence, Force of Will, Pact of Negation (and even that doesn't really count) being the exceptions I can think of off the top of my head). There's no way one blue deck can keep three other decks off the table for an entire game.

Added to that I'll add my support to the guys who say "talk to the blue player" - if one player is making the game miserable for the other three, that's something that needs to be sorted out among the group.

Having said that, if I was playing against your Kaalia deck and you dropped Master of Cruelties I'd be having the same conversation with you ;)


Well unfortunately he did he had nykthos, shrine to nyx, Jace, the mindsculptor and his commander teferi, some mana rocks, etc.

And as I said, if you combo and win is OK, if you counterspell is OK, and infinite turn lock is also ok by me, but 1 hour and 20 minutos of doing nothing is just not ok, taking 6 turns in a row and NOT winning is just not ok


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 Post subject: Re: Is still allowed to have a sideboard?
AgePosted: 2017-Oct-25 12:57 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
alexev wrote:
Well unfortunately he did he had nykthos, shrine to nyx, Jace, the mindsculptor and his commander teferi, some mana rocks, etc.

Did he have a way to untap nykthos? Because nythos & counterspells dont' work well together.

Once he taps Nykthos for mana, simply move to the next step in the turn to empty his mana pool (ie, declare combat)

Also - look into cards that are lands that kill other lands -- that will undercut any benefit from something like Nykthos - is generic enough you can use it against other decks, and is generally pretty hard to counter (only a few select cards can do so.)

I've got a mono-blue deck. It's been able to handle two other decks at once. Three decks that were all gunning for me? Nope, would fold too quickly unless they were having problems of their own (and any in-fighting between those three would count.)

I (a long time ago) got a player to change his commander from Teferi (the legendary creature) to another mono-blue creature simply by always swinging at him when I could. Always. As soon as I could. And I'd tell them that it's because of Teferi. It (eventually) worked.


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 Post subject: Re: Is still allowed to have a sideboard?
AgePosted: 2017-Oct-26 9:07 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Teferi is an annoying commander, mostly because of the things that usually go into it.

There are some ways to beat a counter all the things deck, defense grid, dosan the falling leaf and price of glory are a few examples. Early in the game the blue player must choose between ramping and holding up counters, and they can never have enough counters to stop all three players in the first 3-4 turns, so thats when you need to be putting something down to stop them.

Sometimes they will get the god hand with early mana rocks like sol ring, but the main reason my mono-blue deck wins is because I am given the time to set up and slowly leverage control over the game, and even then I'm always bluffing more answers than I have. Blue decks in a multiplayer setting operate best when people are risk averse, if each player wont play their best threat because the blue deck has a counter up, then my one counterspell is beating 3 threats, but if one players pulls the trigger on their bomb and I have to counter it, the other people can play their threats, so my counter only stopped one threat.

It's like 3 people unarmed against 1 person with a gun. If all three bum rush the gun, they will win, but one of them is going to get shot, and no-one wants to get shot, so the one with the gun just stands there and does what they like.

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