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 Post subject: Promoting EDH fnm that firs un with the 'social contract'
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-22 10:29 pm 

Joined: 2017-Jun-22 10:07 pm
Age: Hatchling
Hi guys,
I own an LGS and we have a huge EDH crowd, so much so we run FNM EDH. To keep the competitive level in line with the format philosophy we implemented the following scoring system:
Players receive points for leaving a pod (i.e. losing)
First player out: 2pts
Second player out: 4pts
Third player out: 6pts
Fourth player out: 8pts

We also have a few penalties,
-2pts for using an infinite combo
-1pt for each player you kill before natural turn 6.

Players are only allowed to concede on their turn (Real life exceptions obviously)

We also pseudo ban 'hard locks', we allow the controller to exile one of the lock pieces, we thought this would be a problem but 99% of the players adhear to it with out any complaints.

Overall the player base has enjoyed it. I was concerned that combo players would complain about the penalty but they are the ones who suggested upping it to 2pts instead of 1
The next experiment we are trying is giving certain decks (i.e John Doe's so and so deck) a small score penalty, one of our players suggested it, he has a pretty competitive deck, and can't afford another one, but he still wants to play, and keep in line with the stores philosophy.

Just wanted to share our little success in mainting a less than competitive FNM
Thanks.
P.s. we also posted highlights of Sheldon's philosophy article from starcity, to help illustrate what the stores goal is.


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 Post subject: Re: Promoting EDH fnm that firs un with the 'social contract'
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-26 1:01 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Firstly, Your rules clearly work for your shop, and I in no way want to suggest that you should change them. My following questions are to get a better understanding of the philosophy you are using to make the decision you've made.

So it's just a straight 2 point penalty for an infinite combo? I like that idea over what my store attempted which is to penalise a point for repeating any loop of actions for each loop after 5.

As someone with a "combo" deck (ie. a deck which can win with an iterative combo) I would be curious what constitutes an infinite combo in your store. Obviously, true infinite combos are fairly uncommon, as one or more game rules generally results in the game ending, however where do you draw the line? Does the combo have to actually win the game? What if my combo only kills one player? Can I make infinite mana with animar, rattleclaw and cloudstone curio and dump my hand with it?

If I came to your shop, with these rules I would also ask why you are hating out those specific kinds of combo? Why are iterative combo's against the philosophy but, Urabrask and T&N putting avenger and craterhoof into play isnt?

I always find it difficult parsing the attempt to outlaw combo in order to create a more social environment.

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 Post subject: Re: Promoting EDH fnm that firs un with the 'social contract'
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-26 2:24 pm 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
specter404 wrote:
I always find it difficult parsing the attempt to outlaw combo in order to create a more social environment.

I think it's a false equivication of "social = interaction" combined with "infinite combo = no interaction."

I can see where people are coming from -- although, I don't fully agree with it.

In the case where you combo on turn 3 or 4 ... sure, that's feeling a bit anti-social ... but comboing on turn 9 or 10 ... *shrug* .. game's gotta end at some point, and hopefully everyone else has had time to establish themselves to try to defend against any combo.

That's my $0.02 :)


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 Post subject: Re: Promoting EDH fnm that firs un with the 'social contract'
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-27 11:24 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
At the MnM (pun unintended) EDH at one of my LGS's, the rule regarding combo is you simply can't repeat an infinite one more than 3 times.

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 Post subject: Re: Promoting EDH fnm that firs un with the 'social contract'
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-28 2:42 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
What is an infinite and why do you target those and not other non-infinite game ending combos?

Purphurous, Krenko and Furnace of rath isn't infinite, but it's a very short step from there to the end of the game. Purphurous + Avenger ends the game most of the time.

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 Post subject: Re: Promoting EDH fnm that firs un with the 'social contract'
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-28 9:00 pm 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I've always had a similar issue. How do you define an infinite combo?

The best definition I can think of is a rescursive loop of actions that is resource neutral or positive (i.e. You end each loop with no fewer resources - cards in hand, creatures, mana available, life, etc. - than when you began). But then you run into how to define a loop. The simplest way is a unique repeating sequence of actions, but that allows the loops with more flexibility to cheat it. You can vary the loop by having several creatures to sac and recur for similar effect, for instance. Two creatures to sac and recur that fulfill the combo's requirements means you never have to actually repeat a sequence, ever.

Then there's the fact that there are non-infinite combos that still leave you with effectively infinite resources. My Selvala, Explorer Returned deck can take (and has taken) a Hero's Bane from cast to 32,768/32,768 in one turn, retap Selvala for 32,768 mana, cast Fungal Sprouting for 32,768 saprolings, and cast Concordant crossroads. That's only three or four untaps. Is it functionally different than infinite?

It's a concept that seems intuitive but is actually very difficult to define on a rules level.

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 Post subject: Re: Promoting EDH fnm that firs un with the 'social contract'
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-08 6:16 am 

Joined: 2013-Oct-09 7:02 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
But then you run into how to define a loop.

Well there is this in the comprehensive rules:
Quote:
719.2a At any point in the game, the player with priority may suggest a shortcut by describing a sequence of game choices, for all players, that may be legally taken based on the current game state and the predictable results of the sequence of choices. This sequence may be a non-repetitive series of choices, a loop that repeats a specified number of times, multiple loops, or nested loops, and may even cross multiple turns. It can’t include conditional actions, where the outcome of a game event determines the next action a player takes. The ending point of this sequence must be a place where a player has priority, though it need not be the player proposing the shortcut.

And this:
Quote:
Loop
A set of actions that could be repeated indefinitely. See rule 719, “Taking Shortcuts.”


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 Post subject: Re: Promoting EDH fnm that firs un with the 'social contract'
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-18 10:50 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I have no problem with defining a loop, my concern is why are loops more worthy of being outlawed than game ending non-loops.

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 Post subject: Re: Promoting EDH fnm that firs un with the 'social contract'
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-20 12:54 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
MrCool wrote:
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
But then you run into how to define a loop.

Well there is this in the comprehensive rules:
Quote:
719.2a At any point in the game, the player with priority may suggest a shortcut by describing a sequence of game choices, for all players, that may be legally taken based on the current game state and the predictable results of the sequence of choices. This sequence may be a non-repetitive series of choices, a loop that repeats a specified number of times, multiple loops, or nested loops, and may even cross multiple turns. It can’t include conditional actions, where the outcome of a game event determines the next action a player takes. The ending point of this sequence must be a place where a player has priority, though it need not be the player proposing the shortcut.


That's not relevant to the discussion, really.

MrCool wrote:
Quote:
Loop
A set of actions that could be repeated indefinitely. See rule 719, “Taking Shortcuts.”

Consider:Karlov of the Ghost Council+Edgewalker+Arashin Cleric+Ashnod's Altar+Phyrexian Reclamation+Carnival of Souls. Add Devout Monk as well. So if the cleric is (0) and the monk is (1), a legal st of actions that is nonrepeating would cast, sac, and recur them in the pattern 0110 1001 1010 0101. Is that a single loop? What if you then rearranged the four digit groups in the other theee possible configurations, creating a nonrepeating loop of 64 recurrences?

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I'm seriously suspicious of any card that makes Doubling Season look fair and reasonable.


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 Post subject: Re: Promoting EDH fnm that firs un with the 'social contract'
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-29 1:42 am 

Joined: 2013-Mar-15 8:39 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Canada, Ontario
I feel like punishing infinite loops is like punishing high intelligence characters in DND. Magic has multiple ways of winning that fits each individual there shouldn't be any reason why the combo player should be punished compared to the beat down deck. Of course I can't stop petty spite reasons.

If you punish combo players shouldn't you also punish infect players?

Also shouldn't you reward mill players since in edh it's significantly harder for them? Also would the eldrazi anti mill effect be considered a loop? They can't die from mill due to the effect shuffling in their graveyard repeatedly.

Also how would an infinite combo made from an opponent's deck be punished? E.g. I use bribery to steal eternal witness then I steal Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker then I steal zealous conscripts. Technically it's a combo made from my opponents cards so do they get punished instead? What about if my opponents has dissapation field and a time warp in his graveyard and I cast Chancellor of the Spires targeting his extra turn card. It's and infinite combo but made from the opportunities my opponent left me.

Also I can't believe you're punishing aggro decks in edh. The whole -1 for killing some one before turn 6. You do know most players just need a wrath card to deal with them?


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 Post subject: Re: Promoting EDH fnm that firs un with the 'social contract'
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-29 5:05 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Bull wrote:
Also I can't believe you're punishing aggro decks in edh. The whole -1 for killing some one before turn 6. You do know most players just need a wrath card to deal with them?

What. You do know that far and away the decks that kill the whole table before T6 are almost exclusively combo? Unless you count something like Krenko or Narset as aggro.

And to clarify about the infinite combo thing: I didn't make it, the store did. I don't know the exact details of why, but apparently one guy was consistently getting first or second place every night and the rule was made specifically to punish him. The store also has an aggressive prize system and only does 1v1 matches (using the normal banlist and rules), which may have also played a part. Why nobody was able to build a better deck or even copy the guy's ideas I have no idea. I also don't complain as my speed kill Shu Yun deck works amazingly in that meta.

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