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 Post subject: Rules that shaped the Format- remove one!
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-14 12:41 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
When I look at the format I can't help but see how the original rules (or nearly original rules) really set up the tone for the format.

For me I loved the restriction on color production as it really enforced the ideas and ideals behind this thing now called Commander (never forget #edh)... But I'm ok with its removal now that the format is what it is. AND I can finally get around to building that awesome Set Triplets deck that I never bothered with because of the color issues.

So the question is, what rule could be done away with?

The only one that springs to mind is the 100 card thing. I would set it as a minimum like how 60 cards is the min for other construction formats.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules that shaped the Format- remove one!
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-14 4:19 pm 
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This thread and this thread have discussed it pretty ad nauseam. I don't think too much has actually changed in the format in a way that's relevant to the idea, but here's what I think can be a sufficient pros/cons list in regards to the limit:

Pros:
Encourages creative deckbuilding by restricting how many cards can fit into the deck.
Unique aspect to the format.
House Rules exist
Burden of proof is on those proposing a change, aka "don't fix what ain't broke"

Cons:
No competitive advantage gained by adding extra cards
Going from 105 to 100 can be a pain in the ass
Makes the format unique in a seemingly random way
Makes an effective ban on Battle of Wits

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 Post subject: Re: Rules that shaped the Format- remove one!
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-14 11:44 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Drake
the social contract, to be replaced with a real ban list.

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules that shaped the Format- remove one!
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-15 12:02 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
@kong- for sure. I don't expect the 100 card criterion to go away anytime soon. I was just musing at which fundamental rules could be removed with least impact. Mana production,while very impactful in many mechanical ways, proved largely unecessary outside of enforcing the flavor of the format. And because that flavor has been so well.established it sorta enforces itself. I think the me would most likely be true for 100 cards. Now, if you're suffering from any Ad Nauseum from participating in the thread I hope you feel better.

Edit: I was very much a part of that first thread.
niheloim wrote:
And I'm right there with him. I dislike "off-color" fetches and I'll only run extort in mono black/white once I've painted up the hybrid symbol in the reminder text to match...

It just struck me as funny that the least impacting of the rules (gameplaywise) are some of the oldest and so arguably part of the core of what defines EDH.


@gath- :D. To funny.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules that shaped the Format- remove one!
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-15 2:16 am 

Joined: 2016-Aug-15 1:21 pm
Age: Drake
The only thing I could see maybe changing would be from '100 cards' to '99 cards + commander'. I don't know if one card is enough of an advantage/disadvantage to justify it, but Partner is a new thing. I don't think I'd argue for the change either way, though it might be an idea to consider down the road if they add more Partner commanders.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules that shaped the Format- remove one!
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-15 2:21 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Drrakus wrote:
The only thing I could see maybe changing would be from '100 cards' to '99 cards + commander'. I don't know if one card is enough of an advantage/disadvantage to justify it, but Partner is a new thing. I don't think I'd argue for the change either way, though it might be an idea to consider down the road if they add more Partner commanders.

You mean 99+ commander[s]? Ensuring that the library has 99 instead of 98 when playing with two partners?

My initial reaction to the deck size rules was one where I wanted the library to be 100 card + Commander, but the sleeves issue quickly changed my mind. Its easy to buy sleeves in instances of 100, not so much 101... Though It seems to me that Dragon shields (my preferred brand) always give slightly more than 100.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules that shaped the Format- remove one!
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-15 4:50 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Does it just have to be that we choose one to remove? Can we replace it with a different rule? :)

Remove "Legendary Creature Card" for your commander, and set it to "Creature Card". Then also alter the Commander Tax to be {2} if your commander is Legendary, or {3} if not Legendary.

Opens up more options -- but at a higher cost. Want Eternal Witness as your commander? Sure... but it'll cost 3 -> 6 -> 9 -> 12 instead of 3 -> 5 -> 7 -> 9.

Could say "Creature or Planeswalker Card" but have the walkers increase by 3 instead of 2. Keeps Legendary Creatures "special" in the eyes of the format, but grants a ton of options available. Also lets people play Nephilem officially :)


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 Post subject: Re: Rules that shaped the Format- remove one!
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-15 5:05 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Carthain wrote:
Does it just have to be that we choose one to remove? Can we replace it with a different rule? :)

Remove "Legendary Creature Card" for your commander, and set it to "Creature Card". Then also alter the Commander Tax to be {2} if your commander is Legendary, or {3} if not Legendary.

Opens up more options -- but at a higher cost. Want Eternal Witness as your commander? Sure... but it'll cost 3 -> 6 -> 9 -> 12 instead of 3 -> 5 -> 7 -> 9.

Could say "Creature or Planeswalker Card" but have the walkers increase by 3 instead of 2. Keeps Legendary Creatures "special" in the eyes of the format, but grants a ton of options available. Also lets people play Nephilem officially :)

Ok. thats sounds like an interesting twist. I think most people would still play legends... but I can see someone playing Mulldrifter or something quirky like a Hydra.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules that shaped the Format- remove one!
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-15 6:15 am 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
Actually, I would add a rule to Magic on the whole. A "shotgun clause" to the stack, where once it is loaded, it can't be stopped as things resolve. Outside of the obvious power-level changes to Snapcaster Mage and Torrential Gearhulk, it also puts a stopper on fancy play syndroime and forces the game into a forward motion.

I wish the community took more time to variations and spins on the format with alternative rule sets.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules that shaped the Format- remove one!
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-15 6:25 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Mr Degradation wrote:
Actually, I would add a rule to Magic on the whole. A "shotgun clause" to the stack, where once it is loaded, it can't be stopped as things resolve. Outside of the obvious power-level changes to Snapcaster Mage and Torrential Gearhulk, it also puts a stopper on fancy play syndroime and forces the game into a forward motion.

I wish the community took more time to variations and spins on the format with alternative rule sets.

Hmmm.. I don't think I would add this as a rule, but as a mechanic on some spells.

I've toyed with the idea of a "Resolve Target Spell" effect. I can see this shotgun clause- a definite resolution- would be interesting for forcing things through.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules that shaped the Format- remove one!
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-15 6:37 am 
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niheloim wrote:
Mr Degradation wrote:
Actually, I would add a rule to Magic on the whole. A "shotgun clause" to the stack, where once it is loaded, it can't be stopped as things resolve. Outside of the obvious power-level changes to Snapcaster Mage and Torrential Gearhulk, it also puts a stopper on fancy play syndroime and forces the game into a forward motion.

I wish the community took more time to variations and spins on the format with alternative rule sets.

Hmmm.. I don't think I would add this as a rule, but as a mechanic on some spells.

I've toyed with the idea of a "Resolve Target Spell" effect. I can see this shotgun clause- a definite resolution- would be interesting for forcing things through.


It's more or less just my experience for the last 6 or so years, that once players figure out how stack tricks work, they make plays that are massively suboptimal, trying to force through fancy plays by freezing the stack- to say nothing of the balance issues Snapcaster Mage itself creates. In the world of Magic pre-Scars, it made sense, it felt organic. Afterwards, however- we're playing in a world with Phyrexian mana and recursion that can impede on the stack. This has more or less come to define, shape, and limit how multiple formats can be played across the board. It's no longer just an unintuitive part of the game, but in simpler formats (like Standard), something that benefits DrawGo decks, in a way that fundamentally leads to worse play (how many people wouldn't play Concentrate if Jace's Ingenuity were available, under the pretense of getting to immediately use answers- and thus try to hold up the counterspell shield for long after it's strategic usefulness has worn off?)

Even understanding that concept has allowed me, as a player- to take advantage of both scenarios. Players trying to play the game exclusively at instant speed make frequent suboptimal plays, and players who have no idea that the stack doesn't have a shotgun clause (because it's the intuitive leap about "how" the stack and resolution function.) The result is tons of awkward judge calls, or just getting to grind out someone who is afraid of sorcery speed draw/answers.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules that shaped the Format- remove one!
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-15 6:46 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Mr Degradation wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Mr Degradation wrote:
Actually, I would add a rule to Magic on the whole. A "shotgun clause" to the stack, where once it is loaded, it can't be stopped as things resolve. Outside of the obvious power-level changes to Snapcaster Mage and Torrential Gearhulk, it also puts a stopper on fancy play syndroime and forces the game into a forward motion.

I wish the community took more time to variations and spins on the format with alternative rule sets.

Hmmm.. I don't think I would add this as a rule, but as a mechanic on some spells.

I've toyed with the idea of a "Resolve Target Spell" effect. I can see this shotgun clause- a definite resolution- would be interesting for forcing things through.


It's more or less just my experience for the last 6 or so years, that once players figure out how stack tricks work, they make plays that are massively suboptimal, trying to force through fancy plays by freezing the stack- to say nothing of the balance issues Snapcaster Mage itself creates. In the world of Magic pre-Scars, it made sense, it felt organic. Afterwards, however- we're playing in a world with Phyrexian mana and recursion that can impede on the stack. This has more or less come to define, shape, and limit how multiple formats can be played across the board. It's no longer just an unintuitive part of the game, but in simpler formats (like Standard), something that benefits DrawGo decks, in a way that fundamentally leads to worse play (how many people wouldn't play Concentrate if Jace's Ingenuity were available, under the pretense of getting to immediately use answers- and thus try to hold up the counterspell shield for long after it's strategic usefulness has worn off?)

Even understanding that concept has allowed me, as a player- to take advantage of both scenarios. Players trying to play the game exclusively at instant speed make frequent suboptimal plays, and players who have no idea that the stack doesn't have a shotgun clause (because it's the intuitive leap about "how" the stack and resolution function.) The result is tons of awkward judge calls, or just getting to grind out someone who is afraid of sorcery speed draw/answers.
I guess thats a learning experience. I've never thought Jace's Ingenuity was playable over Concentrate... though I've sometimes liked Opportunity over Tidings for some reason (I think the difference between 4 mana and 5 mana always works out differently than 5 and 6 in my decks. That and Opportunity plays well with Mizzix). Now, had Jace's Ingenuity been a Fact or Fiction I might have played it.

But really, I have never had an issue with Judge calls and the stack, so I can't commiserate.

EDIT: you want to go back to batches then? Maybe bring back the Interrupt card type?

EDIT EDIT: http://magic.wizards.com/sites/mtg/file ... 0_pic2.jpg

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 Post subject: Re: Rules that shaped the Format- remove one!
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-15 7:02 am 
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Mr Degradation wrote:
It's more or less just my experience for the last 6 or so years, that once players figure out how stack tricks work, they make plays that are massively suboptimal, trying to force through fancy plays by freezing the stack- to say nothing of the balance issues Snapcaster Mage itself creates.

I'm not following this. What do you mean by "freezing the stack"?

And... how would your "shotgun stack" work? 'cuz It's sounding (at first blush to me) a lot like how the stack worked pre-6th edition ... aaaand that got changed 'cuz nobody every played the game that way.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules that shaped the Format- remove one!
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-15 8:29 am 
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Carthain wrote:
Mr Degradation wrote:
It's more or less just my experience for the last 6 or so years, that once players figure out how stack tricks work, they make plays that are massively suboptimal, trying to force through fancy plays by freezing the stack- to say nothing of the balance issues Snapcaster Mage itself creates.

I'm not following this. What do you mean by "freezing the stack"?

And... how would your "shotgun stack" work? 'cuz It's sounding (at first blush to me) a lot like how the stack worked pre-6th edition ... aaaand that got changed 'cuz nobody every played the game that way.


The shotgun clause is roughly something like this...

"When all players have passed priority, the stack begins to resolve in reverse APNAP order (as it does.) Triggers that occur during resolution happen as usual, however the stack no longer results in priority being passed once the stack has begun to resolve, until all spells and abilities on the stack resolve."

This isn't the same, necessarily as interrupts, but an important factor of the stack is that it functions as a wager situation. Could you imagine how Texas Hold 'Em would work if you got to change your bet during the showdown? That's how the stack works. Split Second forces the shotgun clause- and as an effect that is beneficial to the game- but the lack of an actual showdown moment over-empowers certain types of effects, and leads many players to overvalue that function to their own detriment (and in a competitive setting, to the detriment of keeping a game's flow at a reasonable pace.)

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 Post subject: Re: Rules that shaped the Format- remove one!
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-15 9:56 am 

Joined: 2016-Aug-15 1:21 pm
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Mr Degradation wrote:
The shotgun clause is roughly something like this...

"When all players have passed priority, the stack begins to resolve in reverse APNAP order (as it does.) Triggers that occur during resolution happen as usual, however the stack no longer results in priority being passed once the stack has begun to resolve, until all spells and abilities on the stack resolve."

This isn't the same, necessarily as interrupts, but an important factor of the stack is that it functions as a wager situation. Could you imagine how Texas Hold 'Em would work if you got to change your bet during the showdown? That's how the stack works. Split Second forces the shotgun clause- and as an effect that is beneficial to the game- but the lack of an actual showdown moment over-empowers certain types of effects, and leads many players to overvalue that function to their own detriment (and in a competitive setting, to the detriment of keeping a game's flow at a reasonable pace.)


The bolded part is where I think you lost me. I think I understand the general idea behind it, but I'm not sure exactly how it works or how to explain it. Knowing exactly how it works (and how to explain it) might open up some options for my Zedruu deck, but that's a mechanical mess that blindly forces cards into play while juggling the playing field (and gives my play group a headache).

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-Nekusar, the Mindrazer-Hardcore Mill Deck
-Nahiri, the Lithomancer-Monowhite Soldier/Equipment Deck
-Sharuum the Hegemon-Esper Artifact Themed Deck
-Karador, Ghost Chieftain-Kamigawa Spirit Reanimator Tribal Deck
-Zedruu the Greathearted-Predictability is Weakness Themed Deck
-Nissa, Vastwood Seer/Nissa, Sage Animist-Monogreen Land Based Deck


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