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 Post subject: Why haven't we allowed Planeswalkers as Commanders yet?
AgePosted: 2017-May-17 3:22 am 

Joined: 2017-May-17 2:49 am
Age: Drake
Simple question: Why don't we legalize all Planeswalkers as Commanders? They are as important to the story as Legendary creatures, they are inherently less broken than many of the exclusive Commanders (Prossh, Derevi, etc...), and we already have had rules established and proof that Walkers aren't inherently broken as Commander thanks to the 2014 Commanders.

I would like to see some cool and interesting builds based around 'walkers, and I think it's well within reason for the RC to legalize them and ban whatever is broken, just like we do already with Legends in this year of 2017. Overall, I think more freedom is usually better within the bounds of a casual format, and there aren't any 'walkers that are going to be as bad for the format as Leovold, Braids, or Gristlebrand.

Thoughts?


Last edited by nickp2115 on 2017-May-17 1:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Why haven't we allowed Planeswalkers as Commanders yet?
AgePosted: 2017-May-17 5:40 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
The rules of the format are not geared towards walkers, with commander damage being important.

I think the transition would be fairly smooth overall if you went the route of house ruling them.

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 Post subject: Re: Why haven't we allowed Planeswalkers as Commanders yet?
AgePosted: 2017-May-17 5:46 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I think it's a common house rule, but not anything the RC is interested in doing.

Why planeswalkers, but not Legendary Enchantments? Genju of the Realm actually (sort of) becomes a creature!

So... the answer really is: The line of what was a legal commander was drawn long ago -- and it's provided all us players with quite the variety of different options. Why add in extra complexity by allowing planeswalkers as well?

As a note: The Planeswalkers that can already be used as your commander were created by WotC - not by the RC. Extort specifically has the hybrid mana symbol in the reminder text for Commander (so that it doesn't count towards the colour identity.) WotC has been 'meddling' in trying different things for the formats -- doesn't mean that we should make those things the standard going forward.


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 Post subject: Re: Why haven't we allowed Planeswalkers as Commanders yet?
AgePosted: 2017-May-17 10:33 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
I'm still looking at building a Genju deck.

I'm not sure of the build.

Man-lands seem like a must, but I don't know what sorts of supporting spells/creatures would be appropriate for a Genju deck. I almost feel like it should be 99 lands plus genju.

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 Post subject: Re: Why haven't we allowed Planeswalkers as Commanders yet?
AgePosted: 2017-May-17 11:37 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Creating five planeswalkers specifically intended to be generals does not mean that existing ones won't be broken or overpowered, that just means you can design them without messing up the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Why haven't we allowed Planeswalkers as Commanders yet?
AgePosted: 2017-May-17 1:23 pm 

Joined: 2017-May-17 2:49 am
Age: Drake
My point stands though: Why, when Planeswalkers are major storyline characters with interesting abilities, are they not allowed to be Commanders when not only have they clearly not made the gameplay experience worse for the majority, but would allow for new and interesting decks to be brewed around them with minimal negative consequences in the long term? I have yet to hear a real downside to Planeswalkers as Commanders. Just because Wizards starts something doesn't make it a bad idea automatically.


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 Post subject: Re: Why haven't we allowed Planeswalkers as Commanders yet?
AgePosted: 2017-May-17 2:03 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I have played and played against many 'Walkers as commanders, and even the "boogymen" of Sorin Markov, Jace, the Mind Sculptor etc. are far below the most broken options for their colors. It has not ever been an issue running them as a house rule. If people do have an issue with me playing Kiora, Master of the Depths I just use Momir Vig and they quickly decide that Kiora is fine.

I don't think it is going to be changed as a universal rule ever... trust me I have participated in more than a few discussions trying to add them as I feel that we should include basically all cards and all the options. It is unlikely to change unless you can come up with a compelling argument to change it. Unfortunately the person(s) that wants the change has to argue for the change, rather than just telling those that like the status quo to justify the status quo.

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The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


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 Post subject: Re: Why haven't we allowed Planeswalkers as Commanders yet?
AgePosted: 2017-May-17 4:57 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
I see no compelling reason to change the current rules.

Walkers might not be broken, but neither would be using non-legendary creatures. This is not a reason to change.

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 Post subject: Re: Why haven't we allowed Planeswalkers as Commanders yet?
AgePosted: 2017-May-17 5:33 pm 

Joined: 2016-Aug-15 1:21 pm
Age: Drake
I use Nahiri, the Lithomancer as a commander, but she's not the only planeswalker I use as a commander. I also run Nissa, Vastwood Seer/Nissa, Sage Animist as the commander for my monogreen deck. I don't know if everyone remembers that the Magic Origins Planeswalkers are able to be used as commanders.

All of the current planeswalker commanders are monocolor, and I think they might be avoiding printing multicolor planeswalker commanders. If they make one that's too strong, what's the point of having a card printed specifically for the commander format if it just gets banned for any reason? I think house ruling planeswalker commanders is a lot safer in the long run. Safer for what I'm not sure, it's almost 1 am for me, feeling a bit too tired to think.

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-Nahiri, the Lithomancer-Monowhite Soldier/Equipment Deck
-Sharuum the Hegemon-Esper Artifact Themed Deck
-Karador, Ghost Chieftain-Kamigawa Spirit Reanimator Tribal Deck
-Zedruu the Greathearted-Predictability is Weakness Themed Deck
-Nissa, Vastwood Seer/Nissa, Sage Animist-Monogreen Land Based Deck


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 Post subject: Re: Why haven't we allowed Planeswalkers as Commanders yet?
AgePosted: 2017-May-17 6:23 pm 

Joined: 2017-May-17 2:49 am
Age: Drake
This may be a narrow way to look at it, but I think that allowing Planeswalkers as Commanders is just evolving with the game as the format has before. I think it's just as constructive and beneficial for the format as it was allowing "all" legendary creaturesinstead of just the Elder Dragons. Yeah, the format would have been okay if we all still chose from the original 5 and had tribes around each dragon like the groups of Hogwarts, but I think we can all agree that it is better for the format that we have access to an expansive history of legendary creatures to choose from now.


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 Post subject: Re: Why haven't we allowed Planeswalkers as Commanders yet?
AgePosted: 2017-May-17 6:24 pm 

Joined: 2017-May-17 2:49 am
Age: Drake
Of course we shouldn't have Urborg be allowed as a Commander, that's silly, but not only would adding the current and future Planeswalkers to the fray would not only increase the consistency of the format as to not make the Commander Walkers exceptions, but would also add consistency to interesting corner cases like Jaya Ballard, who is a Planeswalker but also happens to have existed before Planeswalkers, so she Bridges the logical gap here as well. Not to mention Ob Nixilis, who has multiple Commander iterations, but for some reason sometimes can't be a Commander, and even Nicol Bolas himself is apparently unable to lead anyone in his current state.

It feels very inconsistent to say the least...


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 Post subject: Re: Why haven't we allowed Planeswalkers as Commanders yet?
AgePosted: 2017-May-17 11:50 pm 
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Joined: 2006-May-24 10:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
You use the term "consistent," so I'm wondering "consistent with what?"

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 Post subject: Re: Why haven't we allowed Planeswalkers as Commanders yet?
AgePosted: 2017-May-18 1:58 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
nickp2115 wrote:
Of course we shouldn't have Urborg be allowed as a Commander, that's silly, but not only would adding the current and future Planeswalkers to the fray would not only increase the consistency of the format as to not make the Commander Walkers exceptions, but would also add consistency to interesting corner cases like Jaya Ballard, who is a Planeswalker but also happens to have existed before Planeswalkers, so she Bridges the logical gap here as well. Not to mention Ob Nixilis, who has multiple Commander iterations, but for some reason sometimes can't be a Commander, and even Nicol Bolas himself is apparently unable to lead anyone in his current state.

It feels very inconsistent to say the least...

Why can't Nicol Bolas be a commander? or Ob Nixilis, the Fallen or Ob Nixilis, Unshackled?

I get that it might happen in the future as Walkers becomes as ubiquitous and universal as creatures, but now is the present, not the future. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Why haven't we allowed Planeswalkers as Commanders yet?
AgePosted: 2017-May-18 2:08 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
nickp2115 wrote:
My point stands though: Why, when Planeswalkers are major storyline characters with interesting abilities, are they not allowed to be Commanders

Because they want the Legendary creatures to have a place to shine?

As you point out, the Planeswalkers are major story line characters - so they already have lots of outlets for those who like them: New Cards (for a bunch of them), stories about them, etc.

So why do they need to be commanders? You can certainly use them in Commander in your 99.

nickp2115 wrote:
would allow for new and interesting decks to be brewed around them

That's... subjective.

I've seen some builds be essentially pillow-fort decks, that have large amounts of wrath effects -- because their commander "dodges" them by not actually being a creature. There's a potential drawback to just allowing them.

It's similar to asking to be able to play Jace, the Mind Sculptor in Standard, just because there is already a Jace in standard - after all, wouldn't that allow for more interesting decks? But no, you can't do that because the format is defined a certain way; In this case, it's defined as having a Legendary Creature as your Commander.

There aren't even any exceptions for things that could become legendary creatures but don't start off that way - so why would there be an "exception/change" for planeswalkers?


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 Post subject: Re: Why haven't we allowed Planeswalkers as Commanders yet?
AgePosted: 2017-May-18 3:00 am 

Joined: 2017-May-17 2:49 am
Age: Drake
Carthain wrote:
Because they want the Legendary creatures to have a place to shine?
It's similar to asking to be able to play Jace, the Mind Sculptor in Standard, just because there is already a Jace in standard

That is a clear straw-man argument. You can't compare a literal game breaking Planeswalker in Standard to a format where every player has a Sol Ring. Also, I've seen a large number of people play Wrath decks with an Indestructible Commander, or fort up a Narset deck, but that doesn't break the game. More often than not it can be powerful, but if the table actually built their deck well then they often have an answer to that shenanigans.
Regardless, not only do we already have an awkwardly small number of Planeswalkers as Commanders already, so the rules are already in place, but it also inherently makes sense. Just like the progression from Elder Dragons to all Legends it is not a logical leap to Legends (pivotal characters in the storyline with a uniqueness clause and interesting abilities) and Planeswalkers (ALSO pivotal characters in the storyline with a uniqueness clause and interesting abilities).

Consider, for a moment, "Why Not?" and whether it conflicts with the transition from Elder Dragons to Legends, or if it makes sense to have literally the same character as a creature and also a Planeswalker, but now apparently they aren't able to lead an army or something.


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