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 Post subject: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-26 1:19 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
Leovold, Emissary of Trest

When things like this actually make it to physical release, I can't help but think WotC doesn't even bother considering the rammifications of cards in EDH. To be fair this card might end up being heavily self-moderated because I can't imagine ANYONE who would actually want to sit down with someone playing a general this oppressive.

Some Points:

1. Leovold has he advantage of being in the best color wedge in EDH. Tutors, card draw, permission, spot removal (for creatures and most other permanent types), board wipes, BUG has literally everything an oppressive control deck needs.

2. His ability not only stops you from being able to draw extra cards, but also turns Windfall, Dark Deal, and Whispering Madness into "Everyone discards their hands, you draw a lot, they draw one, at best, unless you also have Mikokoro or Temple Bell and used it beforehand". In addition Teferi's Puzzlebox flat out locks you out of a hand FOREVER.

3. Even if the person playing the deck isn't using the above cards, Leovold is a 3 mana card you never lose access to with a 6-8 mana praetor level effect. Not only can you never draw extra cards unless you can do it at instant speed, but if you even think of targeting Leovold or his toys you're going to be doing so at a net loss because he gets free draws, a lot of which are probably counterspells to 2 for 1 you with.

4. Every "draw extra on your draw step" effect in the game becomes one sided. While this is less oppressive than above, Howling Mine and Dictate of Kruphix add up fast and will end up burying you in card advantage.

Leovold is possibly one of the most powerful generals in the format, and is just incredibly oppressive and not fun to have at a table. As I said earlier a card like this may end up policing itself, but it's hard to deny the fact that Leovold is INSANE! The last general I can think of as strong as this being released was Narset, and Narset takes a lot more work to rush out and break the game with.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-26 1:24 pm 

Joined: 2015-Jan-09 4:18 am
Age: Wyvern
I wouldent worry to much, he has no built in protection(akin to narset) and once he flips at a table all eyes are on him until he gets cast then every blue decks going for the counter(or red with pyro/reb) other decks are readying kill spells. its a 3v1 to kill him and thats not all that bad. thats how most threats are handled in battlecruser.

Hes better off being house ruled out if anything. hes no more troubleing than a t2 tasigur or a t3 damia.

edit: or zur or even jeleva. they all are scary in their own rights same with this guy scary but not un-handleable( i know its not a word)


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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-26 8:36 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Leovold on his own does nothing inherently against the spirit of EDH. He has a good ability that prevents people from drawing a lot of cards, and gives you advantage back for getting your things blown up.

He has oppressive interactions with other cards, but that is common to many, many legendary creatures and is not a ban worthy characteristic. I do intend to build a deck with him and while I'm sure there will be a couple of wheel effects, I believe unless you actively work to make an oppressive deck, he will be fine.

This comes down to the deck designer, can you break Leo? absolutely, will people keep playing with you when you do? probably not.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-26 9:09 pm 

Joined: 2013-Jun-23 10:18 am
Age: Elder Dragon
If generals were banned on what they could do, the banned list would be twice as long and Derevi would head it up.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-26 10:28 pm 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I would hope that after a few sessions of playing a BUG goodstuff/Windfall deck a playgroup is going to grow tired of the deck. My suspicion is that public games, tournaments, and leagues are where the deck will perpetuate and cause the most problems, since those types of games typically lack the self-policing and social contract of playgroups.


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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-27 8:40 am 

Joined: 2016-Aug-15 1:21 pm
Age: Drake
He does look powerful, but I don't think he's problematic. His ability is less oppressive and more annoying, so I think it's safe to assume any deck that plays him may end up casting him a lot. His low mana cost might make him a problem for competitive play, but if I remember right, the RC doesn't ban a card based on the competitive scene.

That said, he would completely break my Nekusar deck, but I knew when I built it that there will always be decks that can handle the commander level mill that it does, or even benefit from it. I don't think he's ban worthy, but I could understand him being unwelcomed in some play groups, and I could see some people deciding to house rule him out.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-28 2:10 pm 
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Joined: 2016-May-16 12:03 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: The Blind Eternities
In my opinion, He is what the Sultai suite needed as a commander for the longest time because he is rather diplomatic in my perception and he isn't a head raiser once he is out on the board. In terms of Threat Level, he only ranks 1 or 2 out of 10 and I can easily turn the advantage he provides into a disadvantage by using Underworld dreams, and Dictate of Kruphix combined with your standard milling enchantments. Of course, as a Commander, I give him 7/10 stars because he is great and plays into Elf Tribal to some degree which is lovely considering we might get more blue elves in the future.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-28 2:48 pm 
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Joined: 2014-Jul-28 8:30 am
Age: Dragon
Diplomatic? Leovold is the diplomatic equivalent of George Bush the Elder vomiting on the Prime Minister of Japan. People are not going to be pleased to see him across the table. Why would you purposefully knee-cap yourself with Underworld Dreams? Dictate of Kruphix will only benefit you with Leovold in play...I'm very confused here.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-28 3:04 pm 
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Location: The Blind Eternities
kirkusjones wrote:
Diplomatic? Leovold is the diplomatic equivalent of George Bush the Elder vomiting on the Prime Minister of Japan. People are not going to be pleased to see him across the table. Why would you purposefully knee-cap yourself with Underworld Dreams? Dictate of Kruphix will only benefit you with Leovold in play...I'm very confused here.


You misunderstand, if I am against him, Underworld dreams and Dictate of Kruphix are examples of where it will trigger Leovold's ability to where it goes infinite and essentially assasinating him

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-28 3:12 pm 
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Joined: 2014-Jul-28 8:30 am
Age: Dragon
RaiRai wrote:
kirkusjones wrote:
Diplomatic? Leovold is the diplomatic equivalent of George Bush the Elder vomiting on the Prime Minister of Japan. People are not going to be pleased to see him across the table. Why would you purposefully knee-cap yourself with Underworld Dreams? Dictate of Kruphix will only benefit you with Leovold in play...I'm very confused here.


You misunderstand, if I am against him, Underworld dreams and Dictate of Kruphix are examples of where it will trigger Leovold's ability to where it goes infinite and essentially assasinating him


Underworld Dreams and Dictate of Kruphix don't create an infinite loop. Good luck getting an enchantment to stick against a deck running green while you are also giving them extra cards and have fun getting Teferi's Puzzlebox'd out of the game while you try to set up some wonky milling win.

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specter404 wrote:
Basically, when it comes to commander, I want you to stab me through the heart, not cut off my balls.

Gath Immortal wrote:
Twenty Kavus and a Dream is not a legacy deck.


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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-28 4:48 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
RaiRai wrote:
You misunderstand, if I am against him, Underworld dreams and Dictate of Kruphix are examples of where it will trigger Leovold's ability to where it goes infinite and essentially assasinating him


No, you misunderstand how magic works. Here's what I need you to do, print out a piece of paper that says "RTFC" in big letters, stick it next to your computer and before you click send on any post here I want you to read that sign, then read the cards you are posting about and then check that they do what you think they do.

Leovold says "target", Underworld dreams, does not.

This is why EG always beat you, not because he's good, but because he knew how the read the damned cards.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-28 5:56 pm 

Joined: 2015-Apr-23 11:27 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
Yuribarber wrote:
... un-handleable( i know its not a word)


Should be a word, and a standard criterium to decide whether a card is banned: its inherent unhandleableness :)

Seriously though, Leovold should not be banned. Obnoxious, sure, but at least you're left with a card each turn. At leats if I understand correctly how he interacts with cards like Windfall, I assume that, if Windfall wants you to draw three cards but Leovold says you can only draw one, you draw one, right? And who doesn't play SDT?

In our local meta, I think that his own ability is going to keep this guy in check. Play him to to keep excessive drawing under control, and your opponents aren't going to mind that much. Play him to keep opponents hands empty, and he'll be hated of the table.


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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-28 11:11 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Aug-13 2:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
RaiRai wrote:
he is rather diplomatic in my perception and he isn't a head raiser once he is out on the board.

Wut?

Quote:
I can easily turn the advantage he provides into a disadvantage by using Underworld dreams, and Dictate of Kruphix

Wut?

Quote:
considering we might get more blue elves in the future.

Wut?

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-28 11:33 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jul-02 4:25 pm
Age: Drake
You kind of have to build with the intention to lock people out of the game with Leovold, though. He doesn't do anything oppressive by himself; in fact he's relatively harmless if you're not trying to break him. Yeah, you can build a troll deck with him as the commander, but trolls are gonna find a way to troll no matter what you ban.


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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-28 11:44 pm 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Card seems fine. I think in play groups where people aren't all doing broken stuff, the degenerate builds with him will self-regulate out rather quickly.

I'm also not sure he's that good in competitive EDH because he doesn't proactively kill your opponents. I will admit I'm not an expert on cutthroat metas by any means, but he doesn't turn off graveyard nonsense or Demoic Tutors, so my guess is that he's probably too cute and not deadly enough.

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