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 Post subject: Re: House Rules Thread
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-04 5:21 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
American_Kid wrote:
Unglued/Unhinged - If the card could be legitmately printed as a real magic card. (Rabid Sheep, Jack-in-the-Mox, etc.)

How do you decide this? Because those two examples are exactly not something they would print as a real magic card. I'm totally into it though, there's some really cool ones.

American_Kid wrote:
Unbanned - Primeval Titan (There are plenty of cards scarier than this, and Oblivion Sower is just as busted.)

I don't want to go off on a tangent or derail, but i also can't ignore this, so i'm just going say "holy shit, okay"


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 Post subject: Re: House Rules Thread
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-06 1:38 pm 
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Location: Wisconsin
Sovarius wrote:
American_Kid wrote:
Unglued/Unhinged - If the card could be legitmately printed as a real magic card. (Rabid Sheep, Jack-in-the-Mox, etc.)

How do you decide this? Because those two examples are exactly not something they would print as a real magic card. I'm totally into it though, there's some really cool ones.

American_Kid wrote:
Unbanned - Primeval Titan (There are plenty of cards scarier than this, and Oblivion Sower is just as busted.)

I don't want to go off on a tangent or derail, but i also can't ignore this, so i'm just going say "holy shit, okay"


For Unglued/Unhinged cards: If you can make a case that it is on theme and doesn't alter the rules the rules as written (for example 1/2 power and toughness) or reference something not intrinsic to the game (ex: artist names) then it's probably fine.

For Primeval Titan (and I also don't want to derail this thread): It's not an expensive card and we all have access to it. But we see Primeval Titan no worse than some other currently unbanned cards like Consecrated Sphinx. It doesn't win the game immediately, or prolong the game in an unfun way. For our play styles, we don't find games to revolve around Primeval Titan. That is, there is sufficient graveyard hate (to prevent reanimation), and we use tutors only minimally as to keep games fresh. More often than not, PT ends up a 6 mana explosive vegetation. It's one of our player's favorite cards, so why not let'm play it? I think flexibility is key to maintaining a healthy play group, and there's a mutual understanding that cards on the banned list are there for a reason, so keep yourself in check if you choose to play them. Of course, there are cards that are completely unfun to play against. Upheaval is an example which we'd probably shake our heads at.


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 Post subject: Re: House Rules Thread
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-06 2:18 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sovarius wrote:
American_Kid wrote:
Unglued/Unhinged - If the card could be legitmately printed as a real magic card. (Rabid Sheep, Jack-in-the-Mox, etc.)

How do you decide this? Because those two examples are exactly not something they would print as a real magic card. I'm totally into it though, there's some really cool ones.


Things like ashod's coupon, which dont really work within the normal rules of magic. Things which reference players height, what they're wearing, who's older, these require additional input from outside the game. Rabid sheep just flips coins and makes tokens, two things magic rules understands, same with jack in the mox, everything it does is normal to magic.

I like it, but I think each card would need to be vetted with the group as you go.

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 Post subject: Re: House Rules Thread
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-07 1:09 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
Sovarius wrote:
American_Kid wrote:
Unglued/Unhinged - If the card could be legitmately printed as a real magic card. (Rabid Sheep, Jack-in-the-Mox, etc.)

How do you decide this? Because those two examples are exactly not something they would print as a real magic card. I'm totally into it though, there's some really cool ones.

I think it is a "wouldn't print" vs. "couldn't print" issue.

Jack-in-the-Mox would probably get Oracled to be used only when you could cast an instant because it has a similar problem to Lion's Eye Diamond that was brought about by the 6e rules change, but there isn't anything about those cards that inherently breaks the rules.


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 Post subject: Re: House Rules Thread
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-07 2:32 am 
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But Jack in the Mox doesn't alter your hand. So why not be able to use it whenever you would be able to use a mana source?

It would only have the same issues that Chromatic Star would -- what happens if you filter through a colour you didn't need, and now can no longer legally play the spell you wanted?

Granted, when I do play with Jack in the Mox (which is quite rare -- although, I did build an Un- block deck one time...) I tend to tap it to see which colour I get, and then proceed from there :)


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 Post subject: Re: House Rules Thread
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-07 3:04 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
Carthain wrote:
But Jack in the Mox doesn't alter your hand. So why not be able to use it whenever you would be able to use a mana source?

It would only have the same issues that Chromatic Star would -- what happens if you filter through a colour you didn't need, and now can no longer legally play the spell you wanted?

Because it is randomly generating that color, the rules back you up and you can try again. Rhystic Cave is probably the comparison I should have drawn.


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 Post subject: Re: House Rules Thread
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-07 3:46 am 
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But how is it different from something like Chromatic Sphere?


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 Post subject: Re: House Rules Thread
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-07 5:14 am 
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Because you might not be able to pay for the declared spell after activating. I think it applies similarly to Selvala/Panglacial Wurm incident. Correct me if I'm wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: House Rules Thread
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-07 5:16 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
CR wrote:
717.1. If a player takes an illegal action or starts to take an action but can’t legally complete it, the entire action is reversed and any payments already made are canceled. No abilities trigger and no effects apply as a result of an undone action. If the action was casting a spell, the spell returns to the zone it came from. The player may also reverse any legal mana abilities activated while making the illegal play, unless mana from them or from any triggered mana abilities they triggered was spent on another mana ability that wasn’t reversed. Players may not reverse actions that moved cards to a library, moved cards from a library to any zone other than the stack, caused a library to be shuffled, or caused cards from a library to be revealed.


Chromatic Star's mana ability involves drawing a card, so you can't reverse it. Jack-in-the-Mox doesn't have anything that can't be reversed, even loss of life and moving a card from the battlefield to the graveyard.

If you try to cast a Thoughtseize with it, by the rules you would roll and hope to hit {B}. If you hit anything else and didn't have {B} in your pool from another source, you can't legally complete the action. (Aside: This is true even if you have an untapped Swamp in play. There is nothing forcing you to activate the mana ability of that Swamp.)

At the time this was printed, you had to have mana in your pool before you cast a spell. That is why LED has the errata it does, and why JitM probably would get it if they issued errata on Unglued cards.


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 Post subject: Re: House Rules Thread
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-07 5:24 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
American_Kid wrote:
Because you might not be able to pay for the declared spell after activating. I think it applies similarly to Selvala/Panglacial Wurm incident. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Selvala/Panglacial Wurm is more like Chromatic Star, but is such a corner case that it probably won't ever be dealt with.

The way S/PW works is like this:

1a) Do something to search your library. Technically your library isn't reordered during a search.
1b) You see that you like the top card and want to draw it.

2) You declare that you're casting Panglacial Wurm. It moves to the stack. Your library is still in the same order as when you started searching.

3a) When you get to the "activate mana abilities" part of casting PW, you activate Selvala. Parley gets you that top card you wanted, along with some amount of green mana.
3b) You may activate other mana abilities at this point, too, but nothing is forcing you to do so.

4) If you have sufficient mana, you must pay for PW.

5) If you don't have sufficient mana, you reverse all the reversible actions. PW goes back into your library, but Selvala's ability is irreversible. Enjoy your Parleyed cards and floating green mana!

6) Don't forget to finish whatever search you had going when you started this whole process.


Last edited by JJackson on 2016-Jun-07 6:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: House Rules Thread
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-07 6:42 am 
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JJackson wrote:
Chromatic Star's mana ability involves drawing a card, so you can't reverse it. Jack-in-the-Mox doesn't have anything that can't be reversed, even loss of life and moving a card from the battlefield to the graveyard.

Ahhh... Also, thanks for the CR quote. I'd had a quick look for invalid castings in the CR but was apparently looking in the wrong place :)

Also - cool to see the process between Selvala/Panglacial Wurm. I used to be up to date on all these things, but over the last few years I've had other priorities and this stuff just seems to have been swept under a rug in my mind.

Thanks again for explaining it all JJackson. :)


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 Post subject: Re: House Rules Thread
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-07 9:57 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sovarius wrote:
American_Kid wrote:
Unbanned - Primeval Titan (There are plenty of cards scarier than this, and Oblivion Sower is just as busted.)
I don't want to go off on a tangent or derail, but i also can't ignore this, so i'm just going say "holy shit, okay"
Exactly! I was like I dont even know what OS does...google...wonder if you will share that which you are smoking...

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 Post subject: Re: House Rules Thread
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-07 11:41 am 
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So as written, am I correct to say that, assuming you have no other options, if you fail to cast the spell with Jack-in-the-Mox, then you will reverse the game to the point prior to you announcing the spell? That would essentially mean Jack-in-the-Mox is a five-color Mox where you can keep failing until you roll the correct number.


As for OS. Lands go to graveyards in our games. Strip Mines, fetches, discard to hand size, memory jar, etc. And we all run GY hate, it's foolish not to. It's not uncommon for Sower to grab 10+ lands.


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 Post subject: Re: House Rules Thread
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-07 1:58 pm 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
American_Kid wrote:
So as written, am I correct to say that, assuming you have no other options, if you fail to cast the spell with Jack-in-the-Mox, then you will reverse the game to the point prior to you announcing the spell? That would essentially mean Jack-in-the-Mox is a five-color Mox where you can keep failing until you roll the correct number.

If you played it un-errata'ed under the modern ruleset that is correct. If it were a black-bordered card, though, it would likely get an oracle update with a timing restriction which makes it function as it did when it was printed.

If you're imposing on people enough to run an Unglued card, have the sense to use it as it would exist now.


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 Post subject: Re: House Rules Thread
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-07 2:30 pm 
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JJackson wrote:
American_Kid wrote:
So as written, am I correct to say that, assuming you have no other options, if you fail to cast the spell with Jack-in-the-Mox, then you will reverse the game to the point prior to you announcing the spell? That would essentially mean Jack-in-the-Mox is a five-color Mox where you can keep failing until you roll the correct number.

If you played it un-errata'ed under the modern ruleset that is correct. If it were a black-bordered card, though, it would likely get an oracle update with a timing restriction which makes it function as it did when it was printed.

If you're imposing on people enough to run an Unglued card, have the sense to use it as it would exist now.


Obviously ; ) What would be the fun playing the card if it didn't blow up in your face now and then?


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