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 Post subject: Ad Nauseam, Paradox Engine and Food Chain : Problem
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-04 3:27 am 

Joined: 2018-Nov-04 3:06 am
Age: Hatchling
Hi, dudes! :D

I'll show my opinion about this cards: Ad Nauseam, Paradox Engine and Food Chain.

Firstly, "houserules" only works in specific playgroups - as close friends, for example. But I enjoy playing in several lgs with different people, using my decks, its funny to see different people with different strategies :) .

BUT the tree cards that I mentioned in the subject are linear and awful combo enablers, I see, that "optmized tier 0 commanders" only works due that cards. I know about responses, but is nearly impossible try to response multiple opponents that are trying to combo every single turn, sometimes.
:shock:

I know that majority casual-fun players dont use that cards... therefore I think: -Why not ban those cards? :|

Let see if monoblack sidisi and Zur are powerful without ad nauseam, or tazri is playable outside tribal allies without food chain (Proosh, will be a big aggro yay)... and paradox engine, dirty, dirty card that enables unstoppable storms and is a good ad nauseam partner (man, I saw 5 mana ad nauseam win in first TURN! using ritual and mana cript) :cry: .

What do you think guys? Playing in different places is funny. But some cards are dirty and easy enablers to combos, I think it is a time to fight back :wink: .

I dont hate combos, but they need to be well worked and risky as animate dead + worldgorger dragon xD. I love that things :P .


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 Post subject: Re: Ad Nauseam, Paradox Engine and Food Chain : Problem
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-04 9:50 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
First, welcome to the forums!

Second, the good thing about fast combo is you are not sitting there for 20 turns waiting to die it is over. Now most will say, "Just play for second place." This has the benefit of the combo player got to do his thing, but then he has to sit around for the next 45 minutes while everybody else plays a more traditional EDH game.

Most do not want to play a game that takes less time than it did to shuffle, but the Rules Committee are not trying to balance the format for tournament play. If they did it would be a very different thing. This is why Flash and Ad Nauseam etc. are still legal.

Personally, I am of the opposite opinion. I think they need to unban Biorhythm and Coalition Victory. If you can make 8 mana and meet the other criteria I think you should win. I mean, if I can do this on turn 1, then let me do it... then ignore me for the next 3 hours while you play for second place. These types of games tend to not really interact with anybody anyways so it is not like I dropped Armageddon on turn 5 without any way to end the game.

You are not playing for a prize so let people play what they have. If someone has Power 9, let them play it. I have found that most of the time a Mox Emerald would really just mean they skip t1 and are now on t2... unless they are looping Time Walk it isn't that different than Time Warp. I mean what is 3 mana when you already have Palinchron making infinite blue mana?

In short, you didn't provide any new information so I seriously doubt anything new will come of this. People come complain about card X all the time. Does that affect the RC's decisions? Maybe a little, but since again they are not balancing for tournament play, they are more likely to ban the next Sundering Titan rather than the next Food Chain simply because Titan doesn't actively end the game, he just makes it harder for people to play. When Prossh, Skyraider of Kher plays Food Chain the player just won in the least original way possible. But the game is over.

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Shabbaman wrote:
The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


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 Post subject: Re: Ad Nauseam, Paradox Engine and Food Chain : Problem
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-06 1:51 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Before I go to deep on an answer I will ask two questions:
First - How frequently are you seeing these cards in play? I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen Ad Nausium.
Second - Do you cut your opponents' deck at the start? I understand there is room for hyperbole to make a point, but if your opponents are playing a 5 mana card on turn 1 or 2, and doing so repeatedly then they are probably cheating.

I built and played a razor edge Ad Nauseum Combo deck for a competitive commander night some time ago and getting that thing to work was not easy. Don't get me wrong, it's still a broken as hell deck, but the turn 1 combo kill just isn't a thing that happens with any consistency in my experience.

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 Post subject: Re: Ad Nauseam, Paradox Engine and Food Chain : Problem
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-07 12:20 am 

Joined: 2018-Nov-04 3:06 am
Age: Hatchling
specter404 wrote:
Before I go to deep on an answer I will ask two questions:
First - How frequently are you seeing these cards in play? I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen Ad Nausium.
Second - Do you cut your opponents' deck at the start? I understand there is room for hyperbole to make a point, but if your opponents are playing a 5 mana card on turn 1 or 2, and doing so repeatedly then they are probably cheating.

I built and played a razor edge Ad Nauseum Combo deck for a competitive commander night some time ago and getting that thing to work was not easy. Don't get me wrong, it's still a broken as hell deck, but the turn 1 combo kill just isn't a thing that happens with any consistency in my experience.


Thanks for your time :mrgreen: !

Well, when I get combed what I see are combos that evolves those cards (as key cards). Well, the "combo frequency" depends where I'm playing and who are my oponnents - Despite the majority of players bring fair decks, around 1/3 of people trying to combo using those cards.

About those kind of games: Turn 0 combo is hard to see (I already see xD), but they are trying to combo before T4 anyways :cry: - I cant cast nothing in the first turns, only wait their moves to try to counter their unfair spells, pass my turn with tapped lands is risky.

When I'm playing against two decks like this... man, it's hard to response they everytime.


I dont hate combos, but to combo I think about audacious moves - that evolves risky, a good board state and couple of cards. I love stax, land destruction is love! But I think, some no sense cards need to be banned (for a month for example, to test) and we all will see several changes in the META for more competitive players.
Dudes when I read "commanders by tier" I realized, the "tier commanders" dont are strong by themselves... they are strong due they relationship with meta cards, without them the competitive players will change - to a better thing, I think.


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 Post subject: Re: Ad Nauseam, Paradox Engine and Food Chain : Problem
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-08 1:58 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Well you didn't really answer either of my questions, but I think I have a bit of an idea of how to move forward.

1/3 seems excessive, that suggests that in every 4 player game, one person is using those cards to combo. So I suspect there is a little bit of confirmation bias happening. You remember the feel bads of getting hit by the combo more clearly than the other games, so it feels like it is more frequent than it is.

In any case, you also haven't mentioned how often this is actually happening before T4, because as I mentioned above, putting together a combo like that before turn 4 is pretty difficult, even in a deck specifically designed to do it.

Solutions: Play cheap interaction. Your white decks should have a cheap disenchant effect, anguished unmaking, naturalise, unravel the aether, counterspell, the shatter with overload I cant remember the name of. If you exile paradox engine the turn it is played then very often their deck stops working, then they get to sit and watch you play for the rest of the time.

Combo decks are either incredibly fragile, fast, powerful but easier to distrupt or they are good, resilient, hard to disrupt, but take a lot longer to set up.

One more question, how do the players you play with do mulligans? If people are still playing with partial-paris then you will find a lot more combo decks.

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 Post subject: Re: Ad Nauseam, Paradox Engine and Food Chain : Problem
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-10 11:52 am 

Joined: 2018-Oct-01 11:59 am
Age: Hatchling
specter404 wrote:
One more question, how do the players you play with do mulligans? If people are still playing with partial-paris then you will find a lot more combo decks.

There is no correlation between mulligan rules and combo decks. Many competitive EDH players use Vancouver mulligan.


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 Post subject: Re: Ad Nauseam, Paradox Engine and Food Chain : Problem
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-11 10:18 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Oraster wrote:
specter404 wrote:
One more question, how do the players you play with do mulligans? If people are still playing with partial-paris then you will find a lot more combo decks.

There is no correlation between mulligan rules and combo decks. Many competitive EDH players use Vancouver mulligan.

I dunno about that. Being able to keep a combo piece in hand and try to fish for the other does favor combo decks. Just because there are competitive players that use the current rules doesn't mean that the old one didn't favor combo.

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 Post subject: Re: Ad Nauseam, Paradox Engine and Food Chain : Problem
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-11 1:34 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I had thought that one of the most significant downsides to the partial paris was the ability to more easily sculpt a combo-rific hand by not having to ditch your combo piece if you don't like the rest of your hand.

This could just have been me though.

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 Post subject: Re: Ad Nauseam, Paradox Engine and Food Chain : Problem
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-12 1:34 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
Kromanox wrote:
Hi, dudes! :D

I'll show my opinion about this cards: Ad Nauseam, Paradox Engine and Food Chain.


Hi and welcome to the forums.

Two questions I'd ask of yourself and the people you play with:

1. What is the earliest that a game-ending play (be it a combo, a prison lock, 160 points of combat damage, etc.) "should" be played?

2. If left alone, on what turn do you expect your deck to execute such a play?

I'm not suggesting that everyone has to agree on these two questions. Nor that somehow discussing them is going to make everything alright.

Rather, it's worth understanding that the format doesn't really try to enforce "correct" answers to these questions. It takes a few small steps to combat some obnoxious / ultra-fast plays (eg Channel, Tinker) but doesn't try to define that it is a "turn x" format.

And if you got your way and those combo pieces were banned, all that would happen is that the people who want to play combo will still do so, just a turn or two slower.

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 Post subject: Re: Ad Nauseam, Paradox Engine and Food Chain : Problem
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-13 7:03 pm 

Joined: 2018-Oct-01 11:59 am
Age: Hatchling
Sid the Chicken wrote:
I dunno about that. Being able to keep a combo piece in hand and try to fish for the other does favor combo decks. Just because there are competitive players that use the current rules doesn't mean that the old one didn't favor combo.


The most well-recognized cEDH community - the one on Reddit - adopts the official rules. No PPM; in fact, there was a scramble directly after the change, where players found many of their old decks either lacking lands or completely unsalvageable with the Vancouver mulligan.

specter404 wrote:
I had thought that one of the most significant downsides to the partial paris was the ability to more easily sculpt a combo-rific hand by not having to ditch your combo piece if you don't like the rest of your hand.

This could just have been me though.


Indeed, Partial Paris mulligan lets cutthroat players win very quickly. However, combo decks still thrive. Sure, the combos themselves are slower, but they often dodge instant-speed removal. In addition, decks now pack backups and card draw to resolve a win through counterspells. Sure, you no longer die to turn 1-2 combos, but now you have to stop several combos from turn 3 onwards.

Here is a recent tournament that the cEDH community hosted: https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveEDH/comments/9egtqn/september_1st_edh_cockatrice_posttournament/. The finalists' decks all fit my description. If I were to make a competitively-oriented EDH banlist, I would focus moreso on cheap tutors like Worldly Tutor, Enlightened Tutor, Mystical Tutor, Imperial Seal, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, and Entomb. These cards enable not only combos, but also early Necropotence and Sylvan Library plays that lead to even more combos...

Ultimately, I personally choose to play lower-powered decks with more social playgroups to avoid such playstates. Communication ensures that everyone in the playgroup is on the same page, regardless of what cards are banned.


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 Post subject: Re: Ad Nauseam, Paradox Engine and Food Chain : Problem
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-14 8:52 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Are you disagreeing with the statement that partial paris mulligans makes combo decks better/easier to play?

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 Post subject: Re: Ad Nauseam, Paradox Engine and Food Chain : Problem
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-14 10:28 am 

Joined: 2018-Oct-01 11:59 am
Age: Hatchling
specter404 wrote:
Are you disagreeing with the statement that partial paris mulligans makes combo decks better/easier to play?

No, there is no disagreement. I'm stating that cutthroat combo players choose to play with Vancouver and still dominate games.


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 Post subject: Re: Ad Nauseam, Paradox Engine and Food Chain : Problem
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-14 10:50 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Oraster wrote:
No, there is no disagreement. I'm stating that cutthroat combo players choose to play with Vancouver and still dominate games.

Right, but you said this;
Oraster wrote:
There is no correlation between mulligan rules and combo decks.

Which seems to be directly contradictory.

Specter's comment might have been worded slightly off - if you're already in a combo heavy meta, you probably wouldn't notice a drop-off in combo with Vancouver vs PP, but it's pretty clear to see that PP makes combo decks more consistent. And since you're complaining about combo cards, it's important to know what sort of environment you're playing in, to put the comments in context. Which is why he asked (I'm assuming... obviously I can't read his mind, but that seems logical to me)

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 Post subject: Re: Ad Nauseam, Paradox Engine and Food Chain : Problem
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-14 11:00 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
That was my intention, although having thought about it a bit more you could argue that PP also makes finding answers easier as well so I'm not sure how important the mulligans are anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Ad Nauseam, Paradox Engine and Food Chain : Problem
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-14 11:27 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
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specter404 wrote:
That was my intention, although having thought about it a bit more you could argue that PP also makes finding answers easier as well so I'm not sure how important the mulligans are anyway.

I guess it depends what answers are available/fast enough.

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