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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-11 5:07 am 
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Sovarius wrote:
Also, unban Library already. Card is bad and has no logical reason to be banned.


Library's pretty good. I draft it whenever I can in cube, and Magus of the Vineyard is one of those powerhouse hidden gems. That being said, it wasn't banned just for its power... the original reasoning was it was a powerful, ubiquitous card (as in Sol Ring-level, "you need a compelling reason to not run this card")

I feel like it's in the same group as Timetwister; yeah, it's really strong, but it's dollar-value keeps it from being annoying in paper magic. Library's only $1.60 on MTGO though, so I'm not sure how that weighs in.

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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-11 5:50 am 
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I'd want a Library in almost every one of my decks. It'd be as ubiquitous as Winding Canyons for me (Sol Ring is nowhere near that for me).

I believe unbanning it would be terrible. Its price would easily top Timetwister, while many would feel a need to play it if they aim for optimizing their decks. Yes, it's absolutely a great card to have available for your decks, but the "feel bads" would be too common among those who can't afford copies. If anything I'd argue for banning a few more cards based on their value, though I am fine with the list staying the same in that regard.

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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-11 6:42 am 

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Being banned for power and ubiquity is a poor argument. It's been banned for ages (never legal?) and sees 0 testing for either power/ubiquity. It's been banned for far longer than it was too expensive (which is also terrible but another topic entirely i think).

There's too many situations to be at 6 cards and pass and only slow decks that don't commit to the boardstate quickly could really utilize it. Hard to cast fast mana for bigger threats and keep it online. Interacting with 3 opponents is harder because it costs more cards.

You play weird decks, pi, if Winding Canyons is more playable than Sol Ring. Winding canyons just makes your stuff cost more (not to say the cost isn't effective powerful or interesting) so why wouldn't you want Sol Ring in those decks where you're paying a tax of 3 just to flash something?

I tend to think of it like Reliquary Tower, another colorless land that can help with card draw centric decks. They both are only good if you can keep 7/draw over 7. Tower is also overused, so idk a precise metric for power level (it is played a bunch of decks that can't really utilize it but people think there is no downside to using it). Library is certainly more powerful but it has a real cost that a lot of decks aren't going to sit well with (it would just be colorless).


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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-11 6:51 am 
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Sovarius wrote:
I tend to think of it like Reliquary Tower...is played a bunch of decks that can't really utilize it but people think there is no downside to using it). Library is certainly more powerful but it has a real cost that a lot of decks aren't going to sit well with (it would just be colorless).


That's a relatively apt comparison- -if it was made available (available as in both 'unbanned' and 'easy to get'), it would be as ubiquitous as Reliquary Tower. And I've played Reliquary Tower in decks because of the vague possibility of "if someone else casts a Draw 7 or Cyclonic Rift."

Conjecture: If Library of Alexandria was in my decks, I would certainly bend my decks to make it a bit better. I would certainly be more apt to play Wheels. I'm not sure that's format-bending, but it would certainly push me towards building red decks.

(Though, in the end, I'd rather buy another car than a single MTG card, so this discussion likely doesn't really affect me.)

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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-11 6:54 am 
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Sovarius wrote:
You play weird decks, pi, if Winding Canyons is more playable than Sol Ring. Winding canyons just makes your stuff cost more (not to say the cost isn't effective powerful or interesting) so why wouldn't you want Sol Ring in those decks where you're paying a tax of 3 just to flash something?

Depends on the metagame as well. If there's a couple artifact based decks around, mass artifact destruction may abound and the benefit of the Sol Ring isn't worth it to just be a sideline casualty. Vs non-basic lands where most mass-land destruction is socially discouraged (if not outlawed.)

Metagame also could give you more reason to play a land like Library - if it's common that people run draw-7s, then you may often find yourself with 7 cards in hand when you weren't expecting to. Or there's a ton of mass-removal in the metagame so you sort of are forced to slow-play your creatures, or else be blown out by a WoG that you just know was around the door.


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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-11 7:33 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Jeyal wrote:
And I've played Reliquary Tower in decks because of the vague possibility of "if someone else casts a Draw 7 or Cyclonic Rift."


In what way is that a good decision? If someone casts a draw 7, don't you untap with 8 cards? You are passing with 8 cards, not playing a land or a thing...? Rather have colored mana than pass with 8 cards because i can't cast anything in my new hand.

Cyclonic Rift protection is okay but i don't personally play Tower with the idea that i will have it at the same time as Rift resolves because the chances are low that it lines up. Tower is really cool but the only time i need it is when i draw 10 a turn, and at that point my 7 best are good enough and i'd really rather have colors to cast them with.

Jeyal wrote:
Conjecture: If Library of Alexandria was in my decks, I would certainly bend my decks to make it a bit better. I would certainly be more apt to play Wheels. I'm not sure that's format-bending, but it would certainly push me towards building red decks.

I don't know, that seems like your business. I don't think it's worth warping decks, i think it's an amazing card for the decks that can use it, but if you are already on wheels (like nekusar, combo some weird grouphug/chaos nonsense) then it's great.

I don't know Library is the correct reason to run wheels though, it seems like playing personal draw spells is better and i would not expect unbanning Library pushes people into "well red is broken, gotta change my decks".

The thing is, wheels are not always great and are often played because of a commander or lack of better draw or fast combo. It's not ideal to draw your opponents into 7 cards without some kind of special upside for you (unless you play it for chaos/group hug nonsense). So would your conjecture be "i will play Library, then draw 14-21 cards for my opponents but i will get 8"? You keep getting +1 a turn but I don't think i want to give my opponents that many cards just so i can have Library online. I don't know what an average deck is, but i really, really do not see a whole table with hands of 7 all game, so wheel definitely puts threats and interaction and combos into their hand. It still pushes you into playing 1 land plus 1 thing a turn and not interacting more frequently or you can push yourself off of Library. You ideally want to pass with 7 in hand and get the 8th when you don't have to discard, but even if you go down to 6 when you pass you can draw 7th for turn and draw 8th before playing a land which is less ideal, but it's a little more lenient than "Library means you can't do anything else but draw cards" so i'm not trying to say it's *too* easy to fall of drawing extra.[/quote]

Carthain wrote:
Depends on the metagame as well. If there's a couple artifact based decks around, mass artifact destruction may abound and the benefit of the Sol Ring isn't worth it to just be a sideline casualty. Vs non-basic lands where most mass-land destruction is socially discouraged (if not outlawed.)

Really? I'd personally rather a broken abuse of mana get destroyed at some point than not play it at all. I even play Mana rocks in decks that play Stony Silence/Null Rod. If there are artifact based decks and people run mass arti removal, i wouldn't play an artifact deck but Sol Ring wouldn't be going anywhere. There would have to be an unfun amount of board wipes to change that, otherwise you still get to use it a few times more likely than not.

Carthain wrote:
Metagame also could give you more reason to play a land like Library - if it's common that people run draw-7s, then you may often find yourself with 7 cards in hand when you weren't expecting to. Or there's a ton of mass-removal in the metagame so you sort of are forced to slow-play your creatures, or else be blown out by a WoG that you just know was around the door.

And that seems okay but none of that descriptions seems like "shit, we should not unban that card. They might play it against opponents with wheel decks".

Not that Library *wouldn't* be good vs someone playing "oops all wheels", but if i'm drawing 7 cards with some frequency there is absolutely 0 need to draw a 9th on my turn. I don't play cards that rely on what my opponent is doing like that. I will play personal draw spells and keep myself at 7, and i would not cut Library from my deck if i was using it already but i would not add it because someone else is drawing my 7 cards.


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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-11 8:21 am 
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Sovarius wrote:
Being banned for power and ubiquity is a poor argument...


Well, the RC's party line is when those factors bend the game around a single card, it's a problem. Also, it's not like cards get tested for banning/unbanning, so that feels like attacking a straw man. I'm not even sure it's relevant for Library -- if you need a yardstick for how powerful a card is, there's plenty of info available from Cube Drafting. Library's one of the most powerful cards after the Power 9.

I'm not sure either of us can write something to convince the other though, so we might be at an impasse.

...

It does make me wonder though, how much are people's opinions on the banned list influenced by how long a card's been on there? It seems like there's a pro-Braids element... is it possible they either forgot (or never played against) the tedium of "sac Braids, recast Braids"?

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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-11 8:40 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Kemev wrote:
It does make me wonder though, how much are people's opinions on the banned list influenced by how long a card's been on there? It seems like there's a pro-Braids element... is it possible they either forgot (or never played against) the tedium of "sac Braids, recast Braids"?


I think that is relevant. I loved Black Braids, and played her as my main EDH deck for years. Granted it was not a full on stax deck. Granted this was before Bitterblossom was a thing etc. If someone did not play against Griselbrand or Erayo, Soratami Ascendant then they just either have to do it themselves or believe those that have. I am a big fan of letting people play the cards they bought. We are not playing for prizes or anything so I do let people play that stuff... once. If they want to play again they either have to move it to the 99 or play a different deck.

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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-11 10:27 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Kemev wrote:
Well, the RC's party line is when those factors bend the game around a single card, it's a problem. Also, it's not like cards get tested for banning/unbanning, so that feels like attacking a straw man.

Not sure how you mean.

I'm just trying to say i don't think people actually know if it's broken or not. Or that it would be centralizing to game play. I'm not trying to say "cards are supposed to be tested", i'm saying cards aren't strictly banned for it's power level (and on top of that i clearly think it's less powerful than other people do) and saying "it *is* ubiquitous" is not only unknown but not especially banning criteria.

Twister was brought up, but how is Timetwister not banned for price and power then? How do people already understand not every blue deck *wants* to cast a wheel? If Library were unbanned very few people would play it due to cost (which is not a solely bannable offense or other cards could be banned, so i don't see "but it would be more expensive than Twister" to be cause for refrain) and people would realize they don't need it for every deck. Like you don't *need* workshop for artifact decks (and especially not every deck ever). Twister already has an affected price due to EDH legality anyway.

Kemev wrote:
I'm not even sure it's relevant for Library -- if you need a yardstick for how powerful a card is, there's plenty of info available from Cube Drafting. Library's one of the most powerful cards after the Power 9.

I don't know if that matters given how different cube and EDH play (card pool, 1v1, draft vs constructed)
I play Library in Vintage a lot and there are lots of decks in that format that can't play Library, but i don't take that to translate to "Most decks in Vintage don't play Library, so that means it's underwhelming in EDH".
Also your statement is Library is one of the best after P9 but cards aren't banned strictly on power. Note than a piece of power is legal in EDH and this is a format that bans Biorhythm and Coalition Victory.

Kemev wrote:
I'm not sure either of us can write something to convince the other though, so we might be at an impasse.


I'm not here to change anyone's mind really. I am open to new information but i fundamentally disagree with how the banlist is operated (read: poorly), not just Library in particular. I am not super wedded to Library, i just roll my eyes when people say it belongs in all decks and that's why it's banned. I could be proven wrong (let's say in a dream world where it was 10 bucks and legal so we could get data) but like anyone else here, i'm just drawing on experience.

Honestly i didn't expect such a response to my one-liner at the moment. I wasn't trying to build an argument i just threw it out there because lol.

Kemev wrote:
It does make me wonder though, how much are people's opinions on the banned list influenced by how long a card's been on there? It seems like there's a pro-Braids element... is it possible they either forgot (or never played against) the tedium of "sac Braids, recast Braids"?

Maybe very? I think people have a desire for change as well as 'forgetting' or not having experienced a problem card. Or cards like Recurring Nightmare that sort of get worse due to grave hate being better and cheaper. There are also metas that just vary in what they are doing, there are some cards banned that i never saw played while they were legal and i was like "huh, that's a problem?". I had a meta where we never really played Primeval Titan and when it was banned people just kind of thought ramping after you have 6 mana wasn't that strong. In some ways, it still isn't, but given how powerful drawing cards is playing 14cmc of threats every turn is way better than a 6 drop each turn. I have seen Primtetimes fetch basics as much as i saw it get coffers/urborg. Doesn't make it *not* a stupid card but when it was banned, i didn't understand it back then like i do now.


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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-12 12:53 am 
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Sovarius wrote:
Really? I'd personally rather a broken abuse of mana get destroyed at some point than not play it at all.

But the issue with Sol Ring is that it's only a "broken abuse of mana" in the early game. If we're on turn 10 and you draw a Sol Ring, I'm not going to care. If you play Sol Ring on turn 1, I'm going to blow it up if I can.

Yes, Mana-accell is good, but I can certainly understand the case where people don't want to run it. It can bring unwarranted attention towards you when your deck really doesn't want that. Being able to slide under people's threat perception is a valid strategy.


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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-12 1:33 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
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Carthain wrote:
Sovarius wrote:
Really? I'd personally rather a broken abuse of mana get destroyed at some point than not play it at all.

But the issue with Sol Ring is that it's only a "broken abuse of mana" in the early game. If we're on turn 10 and you draw a Sol Ring, I'm not going to care. If you play Sol Ring on turn 1, I'm going to blow it up if I can.

Yes, Mana-accell is good, but I can certainly understand the case where people don't want to run it. It can bring unwarranted attention towards you when your deck really doesn't want that. Being able to slide under people's threat perception is a valid strategy.

That's more of an argument for not running it out T1 without a plan for that mana rather than not including it in your deck altogether.


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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-12 2:35 am 
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cryogen wrote:
That's more of an argument for not running it out T1 without a plan for that mana rather than not including it in your deck altogether.

That part alone - sure. Combine with the prior bit I was talking about how a metagame may influence your choices -- then I can see the option as being pretty good to just leave it out of your deck.


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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-13 8:48 am 
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I've been playing Library in regular multiplayer for a long time (since about '01). Before I played EDH we played multiplayer 100 card 5-color highlander, I played Library in my deck then. I also find myself with many cards in hand in my regular EDH games (often near 7). Sometimes because people play Howling Mine like stuff, but mostly because I like to play cautiously, holding cards until I absolutely have to play them (which is incidentally a reason Winding Canyons does very well for me).

Obviously the strength of the card relates to playstyle, meta and how you like to build, but I am not completely inexperienced in playing it. I have more than a few times not played cards to get my Library active, I've tutored for it in a deck that could just ride its advantage to the win and I have a hard time thinking of any land I would destroy over an active Library later in the game.

I did not mean to suggest it'd go into any deck, though I see how my post could be taken that way. Of course if you just like to quickly play out your cards (probably with lots of acceleration), either because it's required to keep up with your meta, or because that's your playstyle then the card is not interesting for you. I like to play control decks, which are very fond of card advantage and a natural fit for Library.

31k Libraries have been printed. Even if few people feel similar there is just such a small supply of them that it's all but impossible that there won't be people disappointed that they can't get copies of a card that would improve their decks (in their view). I believe there are actually quite a lot of people who like to play control(ish) decks in casual multiplayer EDH, though possibly I am overestimating that.

(Sol Ring becomes worse the longer a game goes, my games tend to go long, it's not worth playing in my experience unless it fits the deck's plan especially well, like in my Glissa the Traitor decks that does a lot with artifacts anyway. Additionally it tends to draw unwanted attention as people tend to overestimate its power and start gunning for you. There are certainly (especially speedy) metas where you have to play Ring, but I've never commonly had to face those. On the other hand the longer the game goes the more likely the 3 mana for Canyons doesn't matter much, while a surprise attacker or blocker does.)

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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-13 4:01 pm 
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I don't want to go down the LoA debate rabbit hole, but if someone says "Unban X card, it's bad", odds are they are either being willfully ignorant or disingenuous. That is to say they don't understand why it's not bad, or they know it isn't and they want to play it.

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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-15 11:25 pm 
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Sid the Chicken wrote:
I don't want to go down the LoA debate rabbit hole, but if someone says "Unban X card, it's bad", odds are they are either being willfully ignorant or disingenuous. That is to say they don't understand why it's not bad, or they know it isn't and they want to play it.


QFT- it's a good choice to dodge that one in particular because because of how often we seem to forget how important wheels are for this particular mode of play.

That said- I do like to imagine that most people make suggestions with earnest intentions of improving the average quality of an EDH game; but I think that happens more on a group basis than on the bedrock rules basis. Cards like Iona, and Expropriate force the game into anti-climax more than I'd really like- but if the RC hasn't stuck them on the list; they probably know something about them that I don't (which is why I'm only adamant about Intuition.)

There is something to be said about the general notion of players fixating on whatever balance is to them being unhealthy for the game in-and-of-itself; as well as factors like loss aversion etc.

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