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 Post subject: Wort and Conspire
AgePosted: 2017-Oct-07 1:33 pm 

Joined: 2016-Sep-16 11:05 pm
Age: Wyvern
I'm sure this question has probably been answered at some point, but a search on the topics of conspire and Wort did not turn up any specific answers.

My question is basically how many times can you conspire to copy a spell with Wort Raid Mother out? From reading the gatherer, it sounds as if you cast spell A which has conspire, copy B has conspire, but copy C does not. I'm also pretty sure that copied spells are not cast?

Lastly, anything else I need to know about rules wise before attempting to build a Wort deck?

Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Wort and Conspire
AgePosted: 2017-Oct-07 7:37 pm 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Drake
You can only copy the original spell using Conspire. You can't copy the copies. This has nothing to do with whether the copies actually have Conspire; it's to do with the timing of when you get the option to use Conspire at all.

To refresh our memories, Wort, the Raidmother says the following:
Quote:
Each red or green instant or sorcery spell you cast has conspire. (As you cast the spell, you may tap two untapped creatures you control that share a color with it. When you do, copy it and you may choose new targets for the copy.)

So as you're casting a spell -- as in, during the process of casting it, paying costs, etc -- you can use Conspire and create one copy.

You don't get to further use the copy's Conspire because the copy doesn't get cast: you never took it from somewhere, put it on the stack, went through the process of paying costs, etc. The copy just winks into existence on the stack. Since you never cast the copy, there is no casting process during which you have the option to pay the copy's Conspire cost and copy the copy.

I'll back this up by quoting a ruling from Blazing a Trail, the article in which Conspire first got previewed:
Quote:
A copy created with conspire will have a conspire ability itself. However, since that copy wasn't played, its conspire ability won't trigger. You won't get another copy.
(Here "played" means "cast" in modern terminology.)

If it helps your thinking about it, the Conspire rules themselves say that Conspire is an additional cost:
Comprehensive rules wrote:
702.77a (...) “Conspire” means “As an additional cost to cast this spell, you may tap two untapped creatures you control that each share a color with it” and “When you cast this spell, if its conspire cost was paid, copy it. If the spell has any targets, you may choose new targets for the copy.”

However if the spell already has Conspire (e.g. Gleeful Sabotage), Wort adds a second instance of Conspire. You can activate one or both of those instances for one or two copies of the original spell (activating both requires tapping four creatures total). This is mentioned in one of Wort's rulings:
Wort, the Raidmother's rulings wrote:
If a spell gains a second instance of conspire from Wort’s ability, you may choose to pay for one, both, or none of those abilities. Each conspire ability triggers only if you tap two creatures specifically for that ability.

_________________
Decks: Mathas, the Instigator (politics and mayhem), and Intet dragons (so many dragons) (actually not enough dragons)
Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


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 Post subject: Re: Wort and Conspire
AgePosted: 2017-Oct-07 10:28 pm 

Joined: 2016-Sep-16 11:05 pm
Age: Wyvern
Thank you, I believe that clarifies my understanding. Will allow me to more accurately project what I can do with my deck while building.

Just as a point of clarification:
Cast Tempt with Vengeance, and then cast Fork on Tempt. The copy will not have conspire, but the original will. In total I could have 3 copies, and all 3 copies will have the original X value. I can not use the creatures from the Fork'ed copy to conspire the original.

Thank you for the help. Time to start looking for a nice Fireball tribal theme with some beefy plant friends.


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 Post subject: Re: Wort and Conspire
AgePosted: 2017-Oct-07 11:54 pm 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Drake
crimson wrote:
Thank you, I believe that clarifies my understanding. Will allow me to more accurately project what I can do with my deck while building.

Just as a point of clarification:
Cast Tempt with Vengeance, and then cast Fork on Tempt. The copy will not have conspire, but the original will. In total I could have 3 copies, and all 3 copies will have the original X value. I can not use the creatures from the Fork'ed copy to conspire the original.

Thank you for the help. Time to start looking for a nice Fireball tribal theme with some beefy plant friends.


If you have Wort out, cast Tempt with Vengeance, and then also Fork it, you'll have the original spell plus 2 copies on the stack -- one copy from Conspire, one copy from Fork.

_________________
Decks: Mathas, the Instigator (politics and mayhem), and Intet dragons (so many dragons) (actually not enough dragons)
Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


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 Post subject: Re: Wort and Conspire
AgePosted: 2017-Oct-10 1:38 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jul-02 4:25 pm
Age: Drake
Keep in mind you can also Conspire to copy the actual Fork.


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 Post subject: Re: Wort and Conspire
AgePosted: 2017-Oct-12 8:14 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
With regard to tempt and fork, you can get 4 instances of the spell like this:
1.Cast tempt, while you are casting tempt with vengeance, tap two creatures (this is a cost and happens at the same time you pay the mana for it).
2. The conspire trigger goes on the stack, when it resolves a copy of tempt will go on the stack, you might like to let this resolve before casting fork. This also lets you use the Tokens from this copy to conspire for the fork.
3. Cast fork, as with step 1 you tap two creatures as you cast it.
4. The conspire trigger of fork goes on the stack, and resolves, you can choose to copy the fork infinitely, but that's not very useful, so copy tempt for your 4th instance.

_________________
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Ghost Council of Orzhova

Playing Online:
Noyan Darr & Sedris Zombie Guy


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 Post subject: Re: Wort and Conspire
AgePosted: 2017-Oct-12 12:21 pm 

Joined: 2016-Sep-16 11:05 pm
Age: Wyvern
The only point of forking infinitely is storm counters. Not that I would include that in a deck looking to ramp and cast lot of spells...


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 Post subject: Re: Wort and Conspire
AgePosted: 2017-Oct-12 12:57 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I considered something like that, but you don't even get storm count because fork doesn't cast the spell. Gravestorm maybe (edit: nope, gravestorm is permanents only).

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Favourite Deck:
Ghost Council of Orzhova

Playing Online:
Noyan Darr & Sedris Zombie Guy


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 Post subject: Re: Wort and Conspire
AgePosted: 2017-Oct-12 1:35 pm 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Orlando, Florida
crimson wrote:
The only point of forking infinitely is storm counters. Not that I would include that in a deck looking to ramp and cast lot of spells...

Doesn't help storm count. You're not casting the copies.


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 Post subject: Re: Wort and Conspire
AgePosted: 2017-Oct-13 12:35 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
No, for storm count in this color combination, you'd need:
Paradox Engine and Manamorphose or Desperate Ritual or Pyretic Ritual imprinted on an Isochron Scepter.

_________________
Current decks:
Mimeoplasm Goodstuff Foils
Sydri Artifact Foils
Gisa & Geralf Zombie Horde
Atraxa Superfriends
New-zilek Eldrazi (5C Devoid)
Norin Goblins
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