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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2017-May-04 10:07 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I think our group normally lets the targeted player make the choice. Occasionally (if it matters) if someone else tries to give their input there may be a "no no, <player A> makes the choice."

The only times I've seen a 5/0 split is when one player is about to win, and the Fact resolving could prevent that, then the Fact player will select someone else who is about to lose, and generally things are so far gone that someone doesn't care about the game anymore :)


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2017-May-07 5:23 am 
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How about Expropriate??
Does anyone else find this card strong?
I saw the post about Time Stretch and thus as we are discussing a multiplayer game, this card is something very strong also. Almost game win.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2017-May-07 6:55 am 
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Rogério wrote:
How about Expropriate??
Does anyone else find this card strong?
I saw the post about Time Stretch and thus as we are discussing a multiplayer game, this card is something very strong also. Almost game win.

I mean... if your opponents know what they're doing, it should almost certainly be a slightly stronger Blatant Thievery+Time Warp. Letting someone take 2/3 extra turns because you aren't willing to give up your best permanent is 9 times out of 10 a just plain bad play.

On the other hand, it is a 9 mana sorcery. Most spells that expensive should for the most part be game winners. Look at Insurrection or Tooth and Nail for example.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2017-May-07 9:11 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Yeah, what Kong said. Unless the person casting Expropriate is way behind everyone else, I'm voting "money" every time in which case this is just a blue, permanent (reading cards ftw, confused Blatant Thievery with Mass Mutiny), untargeted version of Blatant Thievery, which for 9 mana is strong but certainly not OP.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2017-May-07 10:39 am 
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Uktabi_Kong wrote:
I mean... if your opponents know what they're doing, it should almost certainly be a slightly stronger Blatant Thievery+Time Warp. Letting someone take 2/3 extra turns because you aren't willing to give up your best permanent is 9 times out of 10 a just plain bad play.
On the other hand, it is a 9 mana sorcery. Most spells that expensive should for the most part be game winners. Look at Insurrection or Tooth and Nail for example.


I got. When you are on a individual multiplayer probably you will get a Blatant Thievery+Time Warp.
The problem is a team format. Think about a 3x3 or even a 2x2. But I understand that this isn't enough for a ban.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2017-May-07 11:34 am 
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Rogério wrote:
I got. When you are on a individual multiplayer probably you will get a Blatant Thievery+Time Warp.
The problem is a team format. Think about a 3x3 or even a 2x2. But I understand that this isn't enough for a ban.

Anytime you change something about the format, you risk altering how good or bad a certain card is. In the case of making it a team game - that definitely alters the potential power level of this card. So, if the power level is too high, then perhaps a local ban (or at least, a ban on it when playing teams) would be in order.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2017-May-07 9:28 pm 

Joined: 2013-Jun-23 10:18 am
Age: Dragon
Rogério wrote:
I got. When you are on a individual multiplayer probably you will get a Blatant Thievery+Time Warp.
The problem is a team format. Think about a 3x3 or even a 2x2. But I understand that this isn't enough for a ban.


Remember that the banlist is not designed to cover variants like 2v2 or Emperor or 1v1 or whatever. It's only for the standard multiplayer format. If a certain card is a problem in whatever variant you prefer, you absolutely should house rule/ban it accordingly.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2017-May-08 12:51 am 
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Swmystery wrote:
Rogério wrote:
I got. When you are on a individual multiplayer probably you will get a Blatant Thievery+Time Warp.
The problem is a team format. Think about a 3x3 or even a 2x2. But I understand that this isn't enough for a ban.


Remember that the banlist is not designed to cover variants like 2v2 or Emperor or 1v1 or whatever. It's only for the standard multiplayer format. If a certain card is a problem in whatever variant you prefer, you absolutely should house rule/ban it accordingly.


Keep in mind that the EDH banlist is a list of softbans. in that the advised use of the list is that a player needs to discuss any banned cards they wish to play with their playgroup too, but on the whole the list does have a focus on multiplayer. The intention of the list is that playgroups with individually add or make exceptions to it, but to use it as a starting point.

Ex: Hypothetical member of our playgroup says "I have a Leovold, Emissary of Trest, I'd like to play it in the 99".

My gut response here isn't necessarily "it's banned!"- but to ask the question "How many wheels are you running? And how many tutors?" If Leovold is being played as a creature in the 99 without wheels and little tutoring as a sort of proactive Notion Thief- then I think it's a fine addition to the table. But if it's being played in a Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix partner deck given access to black, I will be quite suspicious (since Kydele wants to be played with some number of wheels.)

When a member of my playgroup brought up Prophet of Kruphix- I thought it would be okay for them to play it, as long as their deck wasn't centered around abusing it- And wouldn't you know it, when it wasn't a 4-piece Time Walk- it was just a nice strong card. That's really the rub- the banlist is about enforcing the social contract and creating communication between playgroups about where "the line" is for their needs. In tourney Magic, the banlist is backed up by disqualifications- but in Commander, it's just backed up by an immediate scoop and a refusal to participate in another game- and in some playgroups, you'll get that from unbanned setups too (Winter Orb and friends)

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2017-May-08 1:50 am 
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Iam ok with Commander ideal, and that is the way I like to play nowadays, having fun.
But when you have a 10,20, 50 players group, find a fair list isn't easy.
Anyway. Keep the nice Job you are doing and let's try to make a better Commander


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2017-May-19 2:24 am 
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Joined: 2012-Jan-06 10:25 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Seattle
Please put Protean Hulk back in its box!

I hadn't gotten to play with PHulk in EDH until last night. I was the one running him and abusing and it. is. DUMB.

Just one use was bad but with all the recurring...*shakes head in disgust*

Yes I was playing to abuse it, I was curious as to why it was banned in the first place.

Now I know. *thousand yard stare*

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2017-May-19 2:55 am 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Drake
scatteredsun wrote:
Please put Protean Hulk back in its box!

I hadn't gotten to play with PHulk in EDH until last night. I was the one running him and abusing and it. is. DUMB.

Just one use was bad but with all the recurring...*shakes head in disgust*

Yes I was playing to abuse it, I was curious as to why it was banned in the first place.

Now I know. *thousand yard stare*


Ask your playgroup to pack Ground Seals and Stonecloakers? Not sure that I'd call one session conclusive- but in this situation, I'd definitely want to help my playgroup know how to deal with something like Hulk if they can.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2017-May-19 7:41 am 
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Joined: 2012-Jan-06 10:25 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Seattle
It won't be a problem in my current group. I abused to see what all the hubbub was about. I did the same thing with Kokusho.

I can very easily see this falling into all the same traps that Primeval Titan, Sylvan Primordial, and Prophet of Kruphix fell into.

Powerful ability - Yuuuuup.

Ubiquitous - We'll see. It spiked in price which has helped keep it out of my current group. If it were around $5, I'd probably see it in every green deck

Games Revolving Around It - I only have one game to sample from but I would make it a prime target for cloning/reanimating/stealing. Tutor and put creature(s) onto the battlefield? Of course it'll be the center of attention



I dunno, I'm not really calling for a reban of it. I'm a fan of any card that says "Yes" being unbanned. It just has all the power and pain points of currently banned creatures.

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Phenax, God of Deception -> Grave Rats
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Proving Grounds: Drawmia-maro, Titania When Lands Attack, Tromokratis Read it Again, Kaalia's Klerics, Hordes of Tribes.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2017-May-19 7:56 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I dunno, I've actually found it kinda underwhelming in any deck that isn't running black/dedicated combo. It turns out like 80% of the cards that break it wide open are either not creatures or bigger than 6 (Sheoldred, the Whispering One is NOT fun with it). And since it's a death trigger instead of an ETB trigger, it is way easier to stop and a lot harder to reuse. Most of the time I play it it ends up getting an Ulvenwald Hydra, Consecrated Sphinx, or some combination of 2-3 utility dudes.

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thaumaturge wrote:
Actually, Uktabi_Kong and Kemev are practically the royal family of deck doctoring on this forum, and it's generally a good idea to listen to just about anything they have to say.


Treamayne wrote:
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1st Place in the Gabriel Angelfire Iron Chef EDH Competition

3rd Place in the Zedruu Iron Chef EDH Competition


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-13 7:56 pm 

Joined: 2012-Oct-25 4:11 am
Age: Hatchling
A curious case of Hot Flashes.

Flash is an utterly broken card. It was broken before the Hulk, and now that Hulk is unbanned we again look at a card that is a major offender in the format.

Nothing says broken like the card Flash, which by the way is banned everywhere except in Vintage where it's restricted.

Flash has always been a problem card which is now even more acute with Flash Hulk on turn 0. Only thing that surpasses it is Flash Rector into Omniscience. Both are uninteractive and if a player doesn't have an answer in hand they lose immediately. And this is all before they even draw their first card of the game.

While I believe Hulk is perfectly fair, Flash isn't and has never been so.

I like cEDH, but something has to give. No decks in EDH should ever have the ability to win on turn 0 or 1. Flash breaks that rule.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-13 9:18 pm 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Orlando, Florida
Kaiyla Han wrote:
I like cEDH, but something has to give. No decks in EDH should ever have the ability to win on turn 0 or 1. Flash breaks that rule.

You're better off trying to regulate your meta on your own. The format never has, or will ever be, catered to the "competitive" side of the format. EDH is designed to be a casual format, and the ban list is indicative of this.


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