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 Post subject: Re: Make Boros Great Again (Firesong and Sunspeaker)
AgePosted: 2018-May-20 12:07 pm 
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Card Slinger J wrote:
I was going to run Commander combos with Spiritualize, Chant of Vitu-Ghazi, and Samite Ministration in here but unfortunately with the way Firesong and Sunspeaker's abilities are worded it doesn't work that way. It's based on rule 603.7d stating that, "If a spell creates a delayed triggered ability, the source of that delayed triggered ability is that spell. The controller of that delayed triggered ability is the player who controlled that spell as it resolved." I guess it still works however the official Magic Judges haven't said anything about it yet.


I scanned through other responses, but I didn't see anybody address this. I think this is covered by the current Gatherer rulings on Firesong/Sunspeaker

Gatherer wrote:
4/27/2018: Firesong and Sunspeaker's last ability doesn't trigger if a triggered ability of a white instant or sorcery spell or card causes you to gain life, such as the triggered ability of Renewed Faith when it's cycled.


As for the deck itself, I'm still stewing over your card choices and putting together how I feel about it. If/when I build myself a Firesong/Sunspeaker deck, I'm not sure how deep into combo land I intend to go. There's still too many cards I want to go through before I decide what I'm doing. You build looks interesting nonetheless.

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 Post subject: Re: Make Boros Great Again (Firesong and Sunspeaker)
AgePosted: 2018-May-20 4:56 pm 
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Segrus wrote:
Gatherer wrote:
4/27/2018: Firesong and Sunspeaker's last ability doesn't trigger if a triggered ability of a white instant or sorcery spell or card causes you to gain life, such as the triggered ability of Renewed Faith when it's cycled.


As for the deck itself, I'm still stewing over your card choices and putting together how I feel about it. If/when I build myself a Firesong/Sunspeaker deck, I'm not sure how deep into combo land I intend to go. There's still too many cards I want to go through before I decide what I'm doing. You build looks interesting nonetheless.


As far as I understand, this is to prevent awkward loops from the extra templating that makes F&S able to juice Lightning Helix and Brightflame. Any instant or sorcery granting Lifelink gets a single trigger off of F&S, because Lifelink isn't triggered. But hypothetically- and instant or sorcery granting the Spirit Link ability instead could be interpreted to go infinite off of a triggers playing off one another ad-infinitum without this clarification. Where the cycling trigger is just a simpler example of something that doesn't work to immediately ensure that F&S can use lifelink instants and sorceries to trigger it's second ability- where any less specific templating would push this card from being super synergistic into outright one-shot-combo purgatory.

Right now- Swift Justice Mortal's Ardor, Tenacity, and Rush of Battle all allow F&S to absolutely explode with Spikeshot Elder, Grim Lavamancer, Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh, and other flavors of strong pinger- as well as with something effected by Rage Forger or Hellrider by itself. In the future- a mass lifelink spell within the Boros or Mono W that qualifies as an instant or sorcery isn't even remotely unlikely- pushing the interaction with Hellrider and F&S even harder- since F&S will then functionally behave like Hellrider. There's some design space there that is likely being held onto because adding Soul Link to Red opens a whole hotbed of crazy interactions, in the same way that Lifelink in Red does. Even if they have Alpha Strike cards for both- they will both be safe to play inside EDH- because the effect can only go super huge, as opposed to going outright infinite. The clarification stops Ondu Rising from being that card before they mean to template that particular card. F&S's color identity excludes Jeskai Charm and Azorius Charm so that a player has to play it inside of a Jeskai colored shell to do that- rather than out of the Command Zone. I think it's a very conscious design in preparation for the next Boros set- because powerful Boros cards like Legion's Initiative are very in-demand and popular.

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 Post subject: Re: Make Boros Great Again (Firesong and Sunspeaker)
AgePosted: 2018-May-21 1:14 am 
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Lifelink on pingers trigger Sunspeaker? Maybe I'm misreading what you typed, but I don't think that's true at all. The pingers are the source of the life gain, not the spell granting lifelink.

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 Post subject: Re: Make Boros Great Again (Firesong and Sunspeaker)
AgePosted: 2018-May-21 1:21 am 
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Segrus wrote:
Lifelink on pingers trigger Sunspeaker? Maybe I'm misreading what you typed, but I don't think that's true at all. The pingers are the source of the life gain, not the spell granting lifelink.


Take it with a grain of salt. But, to the best of my knowledge after reading- granting lifelink from and Instant or Sorcery causes lifegain- which means that Turbo/Wheeling into Swift Justice to stick onto a Spikeshot Elder, Hellrider or Balefire Liege pushes this deck just as hard as using Eight-and-a-Half-Tails to color-shift spells like Pyrokinesis (which only adds one trigger to F&S if I understand the interaction correctly, but lets you play Gush-speed burn with additional power, similar to getting a Searing Meditation or Furnace Celebration trigger.) The reason Ondu Rising is the exception, is that the sorcery goes off of attack triggers- where lifelink's effect is static- so if it's just applied through the direct effect of the Instant or Sorcery, it counts.

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 Post subject: Re: Make Boros Great Again (Firesong and Sunspeaker)
AgePosted: 2018-May-21 1:30 am 
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I'd like to know where you're reading that.

Comprehensive Rules wrote:
702.15b Damage dealt by a source with lifelink causes that source’s controller, or its owner if it has no controller, to gain that much life (in addition to any other results that damage causes).

The source of the life gained from a lifelink ability is the same as the damage's source.

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 Post subject: Re: Make Boros Great Again (Firesong and Sunspeaker)
AgePosted: 2018-May-21 2:14 am 
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Segrus wrote:
I'd like to know where you're reading that.

Comprehensive Rules wrote:
702.15b Damage dealt by a source with lifelink causes that source’s controller, or its owner if it has no controller, to gain that much life (in addition to any other results that damage causes).

The source of the life gained from a lifelink ability is the same as the damage's source.


Delicious, delicious, barely ever reliable, sauce.

First, I think I'm wrong about Tails- headsup, iirc Tails changing something to white erases the rest of it's color identity similar to how Spreading Seas effects a Mountain (effective color that can be generated instead of color identity- but nullifying it's utility.) Still foggy here, but I think Tails nonbos your Red spells by color shifting them unless it's something like Chandra's Ignition on a creature with lifelink built in.

Afaik, "cause" in the rules lingo does not specifically care about the damage source- and in this case is likely to also care about the ability source. Lifelink is a static ability (not a trigger)- and if the source is an instant or sorcery- it works, to my understanding. Would actually love clarification here- this card is a headscratcher.

This could be outright useless- but it might be relevant as well...

Big Book O' Rules wrote:

609.7a If an effect requires a player to choose a source of damage, he or she may choose a permanent; a spell on the stack (including a permanent spell); any object referred to by an object on the stack, by a replacement or prevention effect that's waiting to apply, or by a delayed triggered ability that's waiting to trigger (even if that object is no longer in the zone it used to be in); or, for certain casual variant games, a face-up card in the command zone. A source doesn't need to be capable of dealing damage to be a legal choice. The source is chosen when the effect is created. If the player chooses a permanent, the effect will apply to the next damage dealt by that permanent, regardless of whether it's combat damage or damage dealt as the result of a spell or ability. If the player chooses a permanent spell, the effect will apply to any damage dealt by that spell and any damage dealt by the permanent that spell becomes when it resolves.
-
609.7c Some effects from static abilities prevent or replace damage from sources with certain properties. For these effects, the prevention or replacement applies to sources that are permanents with that property and to any sources that aren't on the battlefield that have that property.


Vague wording is vague- but so far as I can tell, even if the damage source is a permanent, the game will still see Swift Justice as the cause of lifegain when you strap it to a Balefire Liege or Spikeshot Elder after loading up the stack with triggers or activations (where Sorcerys might have a memory issue? Idk.)

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 Post subject: Re: Make Boros Great Again (Firesong and Sunspeaker)
AgePosted: 2018-May-21 3:43 am 
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Mr Degradation wrote:
Afaik, "cause" in the rules lingo does not specifically care about the damage source- and in this case is likely to also care about the ability source. Lifelink is a static ability (not a trigger)- and if the source is an instant or sorcery- it works, to my understanding. Would actually love clarification here- this card is a headscratcher.

I think the rule I cited is pretty straightfoward. "Damage dealt by a source" and "that source's controller" are in the same sentence, not separate by clauses or even commas. We can be certain that the damage source and the source gaining life are the same source, not some other source decided on at some later time. I'm fairly certain that a spell giving lifelink is not dealing damage.

Furthermore, Rule 112.7a goes a step further:
Rule 112.7 wrote:
112.7a Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source. Destruction or removal of the source after that time won’t affect the ability. Note that some abilities cause a source to do something (for example, “Prodigal Pyromancer deals 1 damage to target creature or player”) rather than the ability doing anything directly.

An instant or sorcery granting a creature lifelink until end of turn is instructing that creature to do something extra when it deals damage. The creature with lifelink, dealing damage, is the source receiving instructions on what to do.

Are you sure 609.7c is talking about lifelink, when lifelink neither prevents nor replaces damage? That part of the rule is not vague.

I'm trying to word everything clearly, but I also don't have enough time right now to generate large text responses as I'm doing this off and on during work on my phone.

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 Post subject: Re: Make Boros Great Again (Firesong and Sunspeaker)
AgePosted: 2018-May-21 6:37 am 
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Mr Degradation wrote:
Vague wording is vague- but so far as I can tell, even if the damage source is a permanent, the game will still see Swift Justice as the cause of lifegain when you strap it to a Balefire Liege or Spikeshot Elder after loading up the stack with triggers or activations (where Sorcerys might have a memory issue? Idk.)

No, the game will never see Swift Justice as the lifegain source. SJ grants an ability to a creature (lifelink). Said creature will 100% be the "source" of any lifegain, period.

Oh, and also:
Mr Degradation wrote:
using Eight-and-a-Half-Tails to color-shift spells like Pyrokinesis (which only adds one trigger to F&S if I understand the interaction correctly
Changing the spell's color actually shuts off the lifegain entirely (F&S's lifelink is a static effect, not a trigger, so as soon as the spell is no longer red it goes away). As such, you would also not get F&S's free bolt trigger (since the now-white spell is not gaining you life).

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 Post subject: Re: Make Boros Great Again (Firesong and Sunspeaker)
AgePosted: 2018-May-23 6:55 pm 

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Segrus wrote:
I scanned through other responses, but I didn't see anybody address this. I think this is covered by the current Gatherer rulings on Firesong/Sunspeaker
Chant of Vitu-Ghazi does create an infinite life gain loop with Firesong and Sunspeaker but because Spiritualize and Samite Ministration has "Whenever" in it's oracle text, Firesong and Sunspeaker won't recognize the triggered ability as an instant or sorcery spell gaining life because it's setting up a delayed trigger.

Jumbo Commander on YouTube recently confirmed this on his deck tech for Firesong and Sunspeaker where he was less enthusiastic about it's prospects compared to his other deck tech videos. I get where he's coming from, Boros lacks a lot of the important elements that it needs to be able to be remotely playable in Commander though I'm optimistic that will change as time goes on.

Segrus wrote:
As for the deck itself, I'm still stewing over your card choices and putting together how I feel about it. If/when I build myself a Firesong/Sunspeaker deck, I'm not sure how deep into combo land I intend to go. There's still too many cards I want to go through before I decide what I'm doing. You build looks interesting nonetheless.

Thanks. I wanted to capitalize on Buyback spells for gaining life and/or dealing damage in order to get the most out of Firesong and Sunspeaker's abilities but when I realized that there wasn't enough in the game's card pool I needed to improvise through copying instant and sorcery spells since Firesong and Sunspeaker doesn't care whether or not If the spells are being copied.

That gave me an idea on utilizing Paradox Engine with mana rocks and artifacts with activated abilities especially If I'm able to get out Isochron Scepter imprinting either Boros Charm or Lightning Helix to help keep the engine going. Since Firesong and Sunspeaker also works with imprinted instant and sorcery spells due to how the oracle text is worded, it was a win win.

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 Post subject: Re: Make Boros Great Again (Firesong and Sunspeaker)
AgePosted: 2018-May-24 2:02 am 
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Not sure who Jumbo Commander is, although I did watch his Firesong video all the way through, but I wouldn't necessarily just trust anything a YouTube personality says. That being said, in this case, it seems to work out for the moment--although Jumbo C didn't go into full detail about the reason why (Chant creates what amounts to a replacement effect, although I'm not so confident even this follows all the way through since arguably Firesong could also technically be gaining you the life--prevention effects don't have the clearest of rules). Before running around with it in the deck, I would advise getting a high level judge or the rules manager/team themselves to comment. Prevention effects could use more clarification on corner cases like this.

Sounds like you've got a lot of the pieces you'd need. If you had the mana and the buyback spells, I suppose you could set up the Isochron Scepter/Final Fortune/Sundial of the Infinite combo for infinite turns. But your way is likely better.

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 Post subject: Re: Make Boros Great Again (Firesong and Sunspeaker)
AgePosted: 2018-May-24 11:49 am 

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Fair enough. I wasn't that eager to run Chant of Vitu-Ghazi in here anyway since it makes all my other lifelink spells useless. I actually do have the Buyback spells with Fanning the Flames, Worthy Cause, Reiterate, and Reaping the Rewards (mainly as a finisher), while I should have plenty of infinite mana combos to help compensate for it.

I wanted to keep Isochron Scepter in here but with Bonus Round recently spoiled in Battlebond it was too good to pass up. So I decided to run Assault Suit in Isochron Scepter's place to help prevent Firesong and Sunspeaker from being sacrificed. Bear in mind I can still get multiple use out of Temple Bell and Otherworld Atlas with Paradox Engine whenever I cast a spell.

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 Post subject: Re: Make Boros Great Again (Firesong and Sunspeaker)
AgePosted: 2018-May-24 1:32 pm 
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Card Slinger J wrote:
Chant of Vitu-Ghazi does create an infinite life gain loop with Firesong and Sunspeaker but because Spiritualize and Samite Ministration has "Whenever" in it's oracle text, Firesong and Sunspeaker won't recognize the triggered ability as an instant or sorcery spell gaining life because it's setting up a delayed trigger.

Of course, you do realize that unless you have instant speed removal, this locks the game and forces a draw, right?

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 Post subject: Re: Make Boros Great Again (Firesong and Sunspeaker)
AgePosted: 2018-May-24 2:47 pm 

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Willbender wrote:
Card Slinger J wrote:
Chant of Vitu-Ghazi does create an infinite life gain loop with Firesong and Sunspeaker but because Spiritualize and Samite Ministration has "Whenever" in it's oracle text, Firesong and Sunspeaker won't recognize the triggered ability as an instant or sorcery spell gaining life because it's setting up a delayed trigger.

Of course, you do realize that unless you have instant speed removal, this locks the game and forces a draw, right?
I'm aware.

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 Post subject: Re: Make Boros Great Again (Firesong and Sunspeaker)
AgePosted: 2018-Jun-03 7:19 am 
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Hmm... I just came back from a week vacation (went to Charlotte, got to see Sturgill Simpson :D)

After staring down a copy of this card, and getting lots of clarification from the guys in the Rules Discussion board (thanks a ton!;) the conclusion I've reached about F&S is that the strongest way to play it, is as a free Volcanic Hammer generator off of cards with incidental lifegain, which is quite a bit more subtle than I think many of us anticipated- but in practice, it's actually pretty freakin' strong, especially compared to other "counterpunch" generals- and so I think this is the perfect kind of General for things like Furnace Celebration or other tools which don't present a great deal of reach individually- but ontop of Hammer generators spiral wildly into large scale "Ora-Ora".

Image

Going to draft up a list here, the edited post will probably take a little while :P

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 Post subject: Re: Make Boros Great Again (Firesong and Sunspeaker)
AgePosted: 2018-Jun-07 11:05 am 

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So I managed to do some actual playtesting with Firesong and Sunspeaker last weekend by playing a few games against a similar deck with Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest as the Commander. One game I managed to board wipe my opponents' creatures by recasting Reaping the Rewards with Firesong and Sunspeaker despite running out of gas before I was able to do anything else and ended up losing. I had difficulty maintaining the mana I needed to cast more burn and life gain spells to last until late game.

In another game I made the mistake of misplaying Furnace of Rath when I tried to bait an attack thinking that I'd be able to survive the life loss for one more turn when I should've blocked knowing that my opponent was going to pump his creature(s) to swing for lethal. That was when I realized that I should've been running creatures in the deck even though my Commander has more of an affinity for instant and sorcery spells.

I figured that If I run enough creatures that sacrifice themselves for their abilities as a way of getting around burn spells while having reliable chump blockers then I'd have a much better board position. One of my friends at my locals was concerned about me sacrificing too many lands with Reaping the Rewards while running instant and sorcery spells that only work with creatures such as Burn at the Stake and Last-Ditch Effort which I ended up swapping for Blasphemous Act and Hour of Devastation.

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