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AgePosted: 2008-Dec-06 9:38 am 

Joined: 2008-Dec-04 1:03 pm
Age: Wyvern
cmb_master wrote:

If I had to decide on any cards that needed to be seriously banned, it would have to be Tinker. Time Vault is also there, but many have already agreed to that, and it seems unanimous that it will soon be banned. Gifts Ungiven is also a big contender, as it can easily generate an inevitable combo, no matter what two cards your opponent gives you.


mm I have to say that I don't really agree with you on your last part CMB. Tinker is a great card but what you get is still an artifact. I told you, everytime i got a collosus out it either got spun into myth, bounced, or rfg'd. I even had it humbled and killed once so ya theres a lot out there. Gifts doesn't win if you have graveyard hate. One thing I've noticed about almost every deck it has some way of reacurring the cards you used. thats the whole power of EDH!!! using what you already used to pwn some more. In my Sedris I find different ways to use my graveyard and your graveyard for that matter. If any card should be banned due to the card advantage gained from it is Yawgmoth's Will. lets see you get an extra land at the very least to maybe strip something away? or just got another land drop in, probably a few removal spells, a draw spell in there, and a good creature that was killed. Yawgmoth's will has to be the single most effective way of winning with a fatty library and a plentiful mana pool. I play with people who use will and I myself also use it. When that card hits the board if it is not countered then that said play wreaks havoc on everyones board.

thats my words of advice for today :D cheers folks.


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AgePosted: 2008-Dec-06 4:13 pm 

Joined: 2008-Dec-06 2:24 am
Age: Drake
I'm new to this format and the big reason why I got into this is because of the "broken-ness" of it. Being able to play with Tinker, the good Tutors, the good accel (well most of it) all makes the format fun for me and really go me interested in it. I am sure more peaople feel the same way. If you try and tame the format by banning the good cards, I doubt I would feel the same way. I dont think I would get the same thrill playing without good tutors, good discard and just cool effects.

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AgePosted: 2008-Dec-06 7:14 pm 

Joined: 2008-Feb-24 1:27 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Toronto, Ontario
The power level of Yawgmoth's Will is relative to what spells you can repeat. If you are replaying big spells such as Tooth and Nail or Time Stretch or whatever, then Yawgmoth's Will is no greater than Regrowth. In fact, it is a strictly worse Regrowth in that sense. Yawgmoth's Will is only powerful when combined with cheap that net you a great advantage. Ones that I would use would be things like Thirst for Knowledge, Portent, Ponder, Strip Mine, Wasteland, Gifts Ungiven, etc. Also, the way it is abused in Vintage is that it allows the player to replay spells that will generate a large enough storm count for lethal. However, Storm is a mechanic that relies on a lot of multiples, and that is clearly impossible due to the nature of the format.

Tinker is also similar in this regard, in that it is powered by what it fetches. However, the difference being, is that it puts it into play directly, does not require additional mana and does not need any extra cards (other than the sacrificed artifact). Compare the difference between the two. Tinker is power the earlier in the game it is, while Yawgmoth's Will is the inverse. However, Yawgmoth's Will requires 3 mana plus additional mana investments on spells you will play again. Tinker, on the other hand, typically finds something that will lock out opponents from the game. It is almost much more difficult to stop, because it's zone of play cannot be easily manipulated by your opponent. Yawgmoth's Will also depends on the cards you have drawn already, whereas Tinker relies that you only draw Tinker. In that sense, Yawgmoth's Will has some sense of "luck" to determine it's power level, while Tinker's power level is determined by the sheer skill (or common sense) of the player. Obviously Tinker for Darksteel Colossus is a common (but not always good) play. However, Tinker for Sundering Titan or Possessed Portal are amazing game-wrecking plays.

Gifts Ungiven is powerful not only as a combo-enabler. I use it also just as an instant draw 2+. I've easily set up entire draw+lock engines off of Life from the Loam, Strip Mine, Lonely Sandbar and Tranquil Thicket. I've set up counter-walls with Evolution Charm, Forbid, Eternal Witness and Capsize, while having Life from the Loam. My lists can go on and on. In fact, there have been times where I play Gifts for no apparent reason, other than having mana open, and I discover that I had new combinations in my deck that I didn't know existed. (E.g. Tidespout Tyrant, Eternal Witness, Evolution Charm, Oona's Grace). The best way to abuse Gifts is to make sure that every card you draw out will be able to generate you more and more card advantage (card advantage snowball???) such that, even if you don't "combo" you can still outrace your opponent. This is what clearly puts Gifts Ungiven in this category.

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AgePosted: 2008-Dec-06 9:10 pm 

Joined: 2008-Dec-06 2:24 am
Age: Drake
I really don't see how calling the cards good means they should be banned. Obviously they are good, they are banned/restricted in Legacy and Vintage. What I am trying to say is if you take all the good cards (or broken if you prefer) out of the format, it isn't as appealing to me. I want to play cards that can swing games and my opponent(s) should be able to at least answer them or beat me with another powerful card. Tinker into Titan is good, but most decks I see play a lot of artifact mana and a lot of non-basic (excluding duals) lands. Sometimes, it will wreck someone, but so do other cards in the right situations. I think the good cards make the format more entertaining and allow other archetypes to exist outside of control, aggro-control, and straight up aggro.

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