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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-10 3:43 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I retract any and all statements I make, and henceforth shall only TROLL as accordance with 94teen's accusations.

Good day.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-11 12:16 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-28 2:32 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Joz wrote:
I retract any and all statements I make, and henceforth shall only TROLL as accordance with 94teen's accusations.

Good day.


So. . . you retract the statement that you're retracting all statements?

That's some Opalescence/Humility level mind screw right there, dude.

(I'm trying to come up with a Thrun decklist that can beat the Clique, but I have nobody to test it against. Sad panda.)

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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-07 2:23 am 

Joined: 2011-Mar-07 1:41 am
Age: Drake
Fugu wrote:
I haven't played with are against this deck, but I think it's probably fine if Teferi counters your Turn 3 Clique. You then get to untap and resume your normal game plan. If they do nothing else and then counter it again on Turn 5, that's fine, too. You've still got seven cards and they have five. It gets interesting on Turn 7, when they can cast Teferi in response to Clique and still leave up UU (or counter Clique and still leave up 2UUU). But they have to either counter the Clique right there or have two 2-mana counters, because if Clique resolves you're going to tuck one.

If they cast Teferi and counter Clique, they are tapped out, and you can bounce (or possibly Fateseal) Teferi and leave up plenty of mana. It will be awhile before you can safely Clique again, but you aren't under pressure and you're still up 2-3 cards.

If they cast Teferi and don't counter Clique, you tuck their best card, start racing them with you ahead, and resume leaving up countermagic every turn.

If they counter Clique and try to flash Teferi on your next end step, they are tapped out, and you can just counter it (or even Hinder it for the blowout) and leave up plenty of mana.

If they let Clique resolve in order to cast Teferi with counter back up on your end step, you tuck their best card, and probably counter their counter on your end step. (In this scenario, you haven't actually used any cards before this point.) You might be exposed at this point, unless you had 3 counterspells that cost a total of 7-8 mana; no matter what they can probably force something through on their next turn. But on your (9th) turn, you can bounce it, hit them for 3, and resume leaving up countermagic every turn.

My guess is that Teferi has to have a much better hand than Clique to win, or a silver bullet like Thrun that Clique can't deal with.

Would Sygg, River Guide be any good 1v1 against Clique? If Sygg plays first, they can cast Sygg under the counter wall, and if you bounce it right away, you can't counter it when they recast it. And if you don't bounce it right away, they can protect it from blue in response to every removal you attempt. By the time you can remove it twice, they can protect it twice. You could burn cards bouncing it from the beginning until you have enough mana to bounce and counter it, but then they'll have the mana to counter your counter. You could just race, but if they play first, they can counter your Turn 3 Clique and protect Sygg in the same turn. They just have to hit five more times than you to win the race.


Clique doesn't have to be casted turn 3, its not like anyone is making you, and there is one mana bounce and bounce that doesn't target that clique decks run to deal with that kind of stuff. Personally I would like to see a ban list that is at least conscious of a 1v1 game even if its not explicitly based around it, sometimes its nice to play edh with one person like for example your at a new store ya meet someone and find out they play edh and just sit down for a quick game. The cards which are broken in 1v1 formats such as clique and sol ring just aren't necessary to be legal in multi player edh, they add nothing but unbalanced and unfun games

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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-18 5:32 pm 

Joined: 2007-Dec-14 3:34 pm
Age: Wyvern
Location: Southern California
Wouldn't Wydwen, the Biting Gale be a very solid general to beat Clique?

Black will give you access to Darkblast, Thoughtseize, Duress, Bitterblossom, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Mind Twist, Night of Souls Betrayal, The Abyss, and other good control mirror cards/answers.

Your general has flash and is harder to kill. I'm not sure if a Clique deck could beat turn 1 Bitterblossom.

Kitten


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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-19 1:14 am 

Joined: 2010-Dec-04 2:03 pm
Age: Drake
RabidKitten wrote:
Wouldn't Wydwen, the Biting Gale be a very solid general to beat Clique?

Black will give you access to Darkblast, Thoughtseize, Duress, Bitterblossom, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Mind Twist, Night of Souls Betrayal, The Abyss, and other good control mirror cards/answers.

Your general has flash and is harder to kill. I'm not sure if a Clique deck could beat turn 1 Bitterblossom.

Kitten


Number One, Clique does play a few 0 cost counters... :P But the real issue is that Bitterblossom will not kill you as quickly as you will stabilize. And Clique will, in most cases, tuck the most offensive cards before they even get close to hitting you. Would you like to Mind Twist for 2? Seems like kind of a waste...

Unless you are playing an entire deck of answers as well... Which means that often the tutors are not really that helpful, since you have to get the mana to play the tutor AND the spell the same turn, and then hope they don't decide to counter whatever you tutor for... :P

The real problem that seems to get forgotten is the density of answers this stupid deck plays. They will almost ALWAYS have something to do. The thing plays Annul and Force Spike, ffs...

The thing is just an obscene mess of a deck, and non-sociopaths should just avoid it...


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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-30 10:00 pm 

Joined: 2011-Mar-03 12:40 pm
Age: Dragon
Yes, Wydwen seems like a good choice to beat Clique, but it seems awfully weak against anything else doesn't it?

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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-31 9:06 am 

Joined: 2011-Mar-29 8:12 am
Age: Drake
pyroclown wrote:
While i agree that Vendilion Clique is really hard to beat, i don't think that it can outrun a properly built Erayo deck. Maybe i am crazy but turn 2 i have been completely shut out not able to play even one spell, and that is with counter backup. I do think that these 2 are very obscene and should probably be taken out of EDH duels.
Agreed. Erayo could easily beat Clique. I have played a ton of EDH. Clique is dominate, but there is really no feasible way for it to even come close to winning against Erayo.

There is deck that friend of mine made. It was an Ishumara, Hound of Konda deck. It also beat Clique pretty consistantly in 1v1. I didn't do any seriose statistical analysis, but during the tourney in Atlanta it lost only one game against the tons of Clique lists it went up against. Between the Jitte, Emerge Unscathed, Sword of Fire and Ice, Mother of Runes, Condemn, Eight-and-a-Half-Tails, Brave the Elements, ect... Clique is hardpressed to beat certian biulds. And my friend's Hound deck isn't even biult to specificaly handel Clique. Its just a really good voltron deck that sneeks underneath Cliques counter radar (unless ofcourse they have achieved the highly unlikely feat of having either Force or Foil in thier opening hand consistantly).

Clique the best general all around? Yes, in fact it is the most dominate general all around and degeneratly so. Does it have no bad matchups? Wrong. And the people who state that it does not have a bad matchups are simply not thinking.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-31 11:47 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jun-13 2:13 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Memphis, TN
Without having played either deck personally, I don't see Isamaru giving Clique fits of terror. Bounce + Tuck seems like it should get the job done. They play Emerge Unscathed? Fine. Does Isamaru have as many protection instants as Clique has bounce spells? I feel like Isamaru would usually wind up on the bottom before he deals 21.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-31 1:49 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-28 2:32 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Honestly, if you're gonna go the "protection" route, Eight-and-a-Half-Tails seems like he'd be a better choice than Isamaru.

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Wort, the Funwrecker- Mass land destruction as a lifestyle choice.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-31 10:24 pm 

Joined: 2010-Dec-04 2:03 pm
Age: Drake
Seriously though, even the poor fox has very few options, seeing as how the Clique plays about 35 counterpells, most of which cost two or less...

I would gladly play against Isamaru. Equipment is really a joke, and since Clique should NEVER pass the turn with sideways lands, you have to save mana to protect yourself. You have to either play your permanents or wait and hope you need your instants. Essentially, a Clique deck that plays sorcery speed spells is doing it wrong. I don't see how Mom or Jitte, or Condemn even matters to this deck. The first two are just silly really, and you should never get a Condemn to resolve.

As far as Erayo goes, again, Clique is full of one and two cost counters. Unless Erayo flips before my second land drop, I would not be remotely worried about him... And once I get him tucked, I'm golden. The problem Erayo has is that it is forced to play a lot of really mediocre cards to speed up his conversion...

A well tuned Clique deck should be able to dominate almost anything. It is the nature of the deck. It has no sorcery speed concerns, so it just packs in 35 counters... A full third of the deck is counterspells. At least.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-01 8:39 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-28 2:32 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
From what I understand, Clique is only dominating in 1-on-1- it's basically a sophisticated discard general, with the multiplayer weaknesses that implies. (Also, doesn't the French banlist have something to do with this? A lot of fast mana artifacts are banned, making other crippling generals (Erayo, Teferi) relatively weaker.)

I think a well-tuned Thrun decklist could demolish the Clique, but nobody in my area plays it, so I have no one to test against. Sad panda.

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Wort, the Funwrecker- Mass land destruction as a lifestyle choice.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-01 7:36 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
gaijinguy wrote:

I think a well-tuned Thrun decklist could demolish the Clique, but nobody in my area plays it, so I have no one to test against. Sad panda.

Perhaps. But heaven forbid Clique tutors for Hinder or bounces Thrun.

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niheloim wrote:
Aggravated Assault + Bear Umbra = My attempt to make my group move to ban Uril.
That's not ban-worthy, that's the spirit of EDH. Three-card combo involving the combat phase? Awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-01 8:25 pm 

Joined: 2007-Dec-14 3:34 pm
Age: Wyvern
Location: Southern California
Thrun has troll shroud and can't be countered. Evacuation would do the trick because you could bounce your own clique and then recast it tucking the Troll. I'm assuming Clique runs Merchant Scroll, and Mystical Tutor if it knows whats good for it.

On a side note:

Druid/Ooze combo is really starting to dominate the format. Considering it's a solid turn 3-5 kill, a tuned list with lots of protection and disruption could give Clique a real run for its money. The deck is super fast and degenerate so who knows.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-01 8:35 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
If Teferi goes first; it beats Clique (as long as Clique doesn't have a Thwart, FOW or Daze in hand.)


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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-02 10:54 am 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
RabidKitten wrote:
Thrun has troll shroud and can't be countered. Evacuation would do the trick because you could bounce your own clique and then recast it tucking the Troll. I'm assuming Clique runs Merchant Scroll, and Mystical Tutor if it knows whats good for it.

On a side note:

Druid/Ooze combo is really starting to dominate the format. Considering it's a solid turn 3-5 kill, a tuned list with lots of protection and disruption could give Clique a real run for its money. The deck is super fast and degenerate so who knows.

Sorry, I was thinking of the other one, that Exiles ... Mindbreak Trap?

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Spekter wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Aggravated Assault + Bear Umbra = My attempt to make my group move to ban Uril.
That's not ban-worthy, that's the spirit of EDH. Three-card combo involving the combat phase? Awesome.


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