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 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Monocolor? (Command Zone Rant...)
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-12 10:24 pm 
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Sid the Chicken wrote:
Dee123 wrote:
My point is you can amass resources in white without having to draw a card.

This. Also consider white's other source of card advantage - wrathing the world into oblivion.


Often one-sided wraths. So many W "destroy all" cards have loopholes you can build around to make it more likely you come out ahead

e.g. A favorite of mine is Harsh Mercy.This is supposed to be symmetrical at 2W (and the non-sym version is Kindred Dominance at 5BB), but my experience with it shows that I rarely lose any creatures while the rest of the table loses all but one or two.

Also, White re-animation is not to be underestimated. Many players still think of B as king here, but I'm not sure*. Black may have more by raw numbers, but (and I haven't checked specifically yet) I think W may have more options that pull from your graveyard directly to the Battlefield. Also, a lot of the reanimation is stapled on other effects (e.g. Marshal's Anthem, Cleansing Meditation, etc.) that can make it more versatile in the right decks.



*Without running number yet, my gut feeling is that B might be generically better (and undeniably better at re-animating from opponent graveyards) but W has stronger direct-to-battlefield and build-around options.

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 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Monocolor? (Command Zone Rant...)
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-13 1:04 am 
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Location: Prague, Heart of Europe
I suspect there's a bit of an apples and oranges thing going on here. Yes, Wrath effects technically do count as card advantage, but surely we all agree they are not 100% comparable to actual card draw. I certainly don't mix them together when building a deck, do you? Specifically, a well-aimed Wrath can level the field when you're behind, but it can't really help you when you're out of steam. Speaking generally, of course, I haven't forgotten what format we're talking about here =)

Reanimation is cool, that's a good way for sure. Reveillark/Karmic Guide package FTW. Also, some Wraths leave with you with a little something for your trouble: Kirtar's Wrath, Phyrexian Rebirth, Descend Upon the Sinful etc. White is getting there, but the process is painfully slow.

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 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Monocolor? (Command Zone Rant...)
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-14 2:17 am 
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Antis wrote:
White is getting there, but the process is painfully slow.

You're not wrong. I think people also overlook the artifacts you wouldn't play in other colours.

I remember when Staff of Nin was printed, white (and then-red) players rejoiced at something that wasn't Mind's Eye. It wasn't great, but it wasn't totally not in consideration, either.

There are also some cantrip engines that come up fairly frequently for me. Stuff like Mind Stone and Sun Titan

Now, we have Arch of Orazca, Immortal Sun and Endless Atlas, too. Also, we can sometimes stymie our opponents draws with Alms Collector or Spirit of the Labyrinth.

Honestly, I think mono-white, while not 'there' yet, is doing okay. We've come a long way from deciding when to lock in with Enduring Renewal based on our board and current hand.

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 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Monocolor? (Command Zone Rant...)
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-18 9:58 am 
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Antis wrote:
Yes, Wrath effects technically do count as card advantage, but surely we all agree they are not 100% comparable to actual card draw.

And? One fills your hand, the other takes cards away from your opponents... I just strongly disagree with the notion that because white isn't great for card draw, it's inherently bad. I do agree with Josh and Jimmy that the mono-white commanders available in Throne of Eldraine are incredibly uninspiring. But that doesn't mean white is terrible. They had an episode of their own freaking show where someone had a Sram deck that was drawing ludicrous numbers of cards, and doing it very early on.

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 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Monocolor? (Command Zone Rant...)
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-18 8:13 pm 
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Location: Prague, Heart of Europe
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Antis wrote:
Yes, Wrath effects technically do count as card advantage, but surely we all agree they are not 100% comparable to actual card draw.

And? One fills your hand, the other takes cards away from your opponents...
What do you mean, "And?" I explained what I meant in the same post, right after the sentence you quoted, didn't I?

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tempesteye wrote:
In my early teens I was a Timmy.
In my late teens I was a Spike.
In my 20's I was a Johnny.
Now, I just like to play.
'Active decks' list here.
Currently hiring servants for my palace, made from my own walls of text.


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 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Monocolor? (Command Zone Rant...)
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-19 12:41 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
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I'll admit, I'm kind of curious as to why you don't think a Wrath of God that kills 2 of your opponents creatures (and none of yours) isn't 100% comparable to casting a Divination spell?

Or is that hinging on the "100% comparable" -- so the card advantage is fine, but as one just removes opponent's options while the other (hopefully) gives you additional ones means it's not exactly the same?


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 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Monocolor? (Command Zone Rant...)
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-19 4:35 am 
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Getting a little nitpicky here, but a wrath would have to kill 2 (nontoken) creatures of each opponent to qualify as the same as a Divination.


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 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Monocolor? (Command Zone Rant...)
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-19 4:41 am 
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That all depends on how you look at it.

If I kill two creatures opponent control, they are down 2, and I only used 1 card. Net: +1

If I cast divination, I still only used 1 card, and I'm up 2 cards: Net +1.

Sure, you could compare it to how many you've gained over your opponents, however that's not required to be able to successfully talk about about card advantage.


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 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Monocolor? (Command Zone Rant...)
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-19 4:42 am 
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Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Getting a little nitpicky here, but a wrath would have to kill 2 (nontoken) creatures of each opponent to qualify as the same as a Divination.


I mean, Divination isn't the greatest card ever. I can't remember the last time I played it in a constructed deck. If it kills 2+ relevant creatures I would call it card advantage. Now how you define relevant is kinda subjective I know... but blowing up Desolation Twin and it's token is worth 2WW in my book.

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The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Monocolor? (Command Zone Rant...)
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-19 5:46 am 
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Carthain wrote:
If I kill two creatures opponent control, they are down 2, and I only used 1 card. Net: +1

This is such a fallacious argument. What if those two creatures each drew a card on etb? What if they got their controller a land? What if they leave something behind (e.g Afterlife triggers)? What if they kill something on the way out? What if they've already done 5 damage to you? 10? 40? What if they're tokens? None of these scenarios are particularly unusual, either.

Wrath's are not card advantage. You don't "net" cards by spending a Wrath to kill 10 creatures. You are still down a card in hand and all your opponents still have the same number of cards in hand. Sure, it's super efficient removal, but removal is not card advantage.

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 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Monocolor? (Command Zone Rant...)
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-19 6:27 am 
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Viperion wrote:
Carthain wrote:
If I kill two creatures opponent control, they are down 2, and I only used 1 card. Net: +1

This is such a fallacious argument. What if those two creatures each drew a card on etb? What if they got their controller a land? What if they leave something behind (e.g Afterlife triggers)? What if they kill something on the way out? What if they've already done 5 damage to you? 10? 40? What if they're tokens? None of these scenarios are particularly unusual, either.

Wrath's are not card advantage. You don't "net" cards by spending a Wrath to kill 10 creatures. You are still down a card in hand and all your opponents still have the same number of cards in hand. Sure, it's super efficient removal, but removal is not card advantage.

If you really want to go down this rabbit hole, you've got the math wrong. You're down a card in hand, while your opponents have already been down a card in hand by playing those two creatures. Furthermore, why are cards in hand automatically assumed to be better than cards on the field? An Eldrazi in hand is a piece of garbage, an Eldrazi on the field is potentially game-winning. And further still, you assume that those creatures just got there by a vacuum, not taking into account the ramp and other shenanigans that might have costed the controller cards to get those creatures out.

One could also make the argument that in the case of a wrath, you basically guarantee getting rid of 2+ relevant cards from each opponent. Card draw on the other hand is more often than not random, quite often giving you a technical quantitative advantage but no significant qualitative advantage. I can't count the number of times I've resolved something like a C Sphinx or a Rhystic Study only to draw nothing but lands for the next 10 cards or equally silly failures at digging up anything useful.


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 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Monocolor? (Command Zone Rant...)
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-19 6:42 am 
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Viperion wrote:
Carthain wrote:
If I kill two creatures opponent control, they are down 2, and I only used 1 card. Net: +1

This is such a fallacious argument. What if those two creatures each drew a card on etb? What if...

It's not fallacious. It does assume they are vanilla creature, sure. But that doesn't make it full of fallacies, just unstated assumptions. Plus, I'm not looking for an "grand-unifying" idea, I just put out a basic concept looking for an answer. Saying that my example doesn't specify if they are tokens or not, or if they had ETB effects or not doesn't help things.

Plus -- those things don't actually matter.

Let's examine: Simple game, 1-on-1. My opponent has two creatures in play, one of those creatures was a grizzly bear and the other a Elvish Visionary. They are already in play, my opponent has drawn the card for the visionary. I now play Wrath of God. I get +1 card advantage because my 1 card "deals with" 2 of my opponents. Overall, through the course of the game the visionary did provide +1 card sure ... but that doesn't change the effect on card advantage that the wrath provided.

Assuming no other effects on the game, my opponent (before the wrath) had +1 card advantage (from drawing from the visionary.) When the wrath happens, they are still down 2 cards, and I'm only down 1 card. So that gives me +1 card advantage. Overall for the whole game, we're now even on card advantage -- but that doesn't change the card advantage provided from the wrath.

Same goes for things like Desolation Twin -- the token is already a +1 advantage for the person who cast it. That the token is a token doesn't take away from the card advantage provided by a subsequent Wrath of God.

So yes, for the purposes of the whole game, there are effects that creatures can cause to create some form of card advantage (be that drawing from Elvish Visionary, to putting lands into play from Fertalid) -- but that only matters if you're looking for overall card advantage for the game so far to the point in time. Unfortunately, that's not what I'm interested in. I'm interested in the transition of the game state from "pre-wrath" to "post-wrath"

Viperion wrote:
Wrath's are not card advantage. You don't "net" cards by spending a Wrath to kill 10 creatures. You are still down a card in hand and all your opponents still have the same number of cards in hand.

Sorry, but Card Advantage doesn't count only cards in hand. That link there is to Wikipedia, which mentions card advantage is referring to cards in hand and/or in play.

To think that Card Advantage only matters about cards in hand is incorrect.

Now, there are tons of possible caveats -- but above, I didn't specify specifics simply because I wanted a very basic example. If it's not mentioned, then it's not something that's relevant.


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 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Monocolor? (Command Zone Rant...)
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-19 6:45 am 
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Funnily enough, the Wikipedia article literally refers to 'sweeper spells' as a form of card advantage.

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 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Monocolor? (Command Zone Rant...)
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-19 8:04 am 
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I disagree with that analysis, but I see how the definition of card advantage could be broadened to include sweepers and "unfavorable combat" (really? that one's a real stretch, IMO).

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one - I realise that (apparently) puts me in the minority though.

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The internet's great at making noise, and poor at operating pants. There's gonna be half-dressed mobs screeching half-assed arguments for the rest of the 21st century - Kemev


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 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Monocolor? (Command Zone Rant...)
AgePosted: 2019-Nov-19 8:08 am 
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I think what irks me the most is that Green and Red especially have gotten tools to shore up their weaknesses (Fight for G, Impulse draw for R) and White gets Happily Ever After? In what world would someone think that is a good card? I mean I understand that they wanted to err on the weak side... but yeah they really nailed it when they wanted a worse... well everything.

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The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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