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 Post subject: Re: Writing a letter
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-28 8:03 am 

Joined: 2010-Mar-10 1:31 pm
Age: Dragon
so, i'm just going to go back to apathy,since that's easier than actually attempting to do anything.:roll:

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onlainari wrote:
trappedslider wrote:
EDIT: so if i somehow manged to get down to 1 life,played Repay in Kind followed by Decree of Annihilation then it owuld be bad evil juju?

That's not how magic works. You can't equate cards and situations linearly like that!


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 Post subject: Re: Writing a letter
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-28 10:27 am 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
trappedslider wrote:
so, i'm just going to go back to apathy,since that's easier than actually attempting to do anything.


Of course apathy is easier. Change is hard. Affecting change takes even more hard work. You have to take your time, do research, construct thorough arguments with evidence and references, and continue to push despite internal and external doubts.

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Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
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 Post subject: Re: Writing a letter
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-28 7:35 pm 

Joined: 2010-Mar-10 1:31 pm
Age: Dragon
Treamayne wrote:
trappedslider wrote:
so, i'm just going to go back to apathy,since that's easier than actually attempting to do anything.


Of course apathy is easier. Change is hard. Affecting change takes even more hard work. You have to take your time, do research, construct thorough arguments with evidence and references, and continue to push despite internal and external doubts.


My snark was aimed at the responses in this thread, which seems to be "As it has been,so it will always be"

I'm still planning on writing and sending this letter, but I am re-working it.

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onlainari wrote:
trappedslider wrote:
EDIT: so if i somehow manged to get down to 1 life,played Repay in Kind followed by Decree of Annihilation then it owuld be bad evil juju?

That's not how magic works. You can't equate cards and situations linearly like that!


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 Post subject: Re: Writing a letter
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-29 10:53 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I hope the answer to this question is "All of it" but I have to ask anyway.

How much of the WOTC publications about the reserved list have you read? I ask this because they have spent some considerable digital ink on the subject. In amongst that you will find the official answers to your questions.

The reprint policy exists because WOTC received a huge degree of negative feedback around the release of Chronicles and fourth edition. This was fairly early in the development of the game, just as everything was going well for them and as Mark Rosewater discusses in his 20 things that were going to kill magic this outcry was... going to kill magic.

The policy was made in order to gain public confidence and it remains for the same reason. WOTC made a promise, and you can argue whether or not that promise was legally binding or not, it doesn't really matter. The only thing that matters is whether or not you believe a company should keep its promises.

Now I hold the position that the reserved list is bad for the game, that it should be removed, however I also respect the choice not to do so. Even if my position is shared by the majority of magic players, I still believe the right thing to do is keep the reserve list policy until the vast, vast majority of MTG people (>90%) also agree to remove it.

You keep your promises until the people you made the promise to release you from that agreement, and for what it's worth WOTC has bowed to public opinion. In one of the articles released they discuss in 2002 how Alpha commons and uncommons came off the list because of overwhelming public support for that to happen.

In summary the problem with your letter is that it's misplaced. WOTC doesnt want the reserved list any more, they have tried to skirt around it multiple times, Hasbro doesn't want the reserved list either. Your letter needs to convince the court of public opinion to the point that no-one can possibly argue for it to remain.

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 Post subject: Re: Writing a letter
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-30 2:22 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Dragon
specter404 wrote:
The policy was made in order to gain public confidence and it remains for the same reason. WOTC made a promise, and you can argue whether or not that promise was legally binding or not, it doesn't really matter. The only thing that matters is whether or not you believe a company should keep its promises.

Now I hold the position that the reserved list is bad for the game, that it should be removed, however I also respect the choice not to do so. Even if my position is shared by the majority of magic players, I still believe the right thing to do is keep the reserve list policy until the vast, vast majority of MTG people (>90%) also agree to remove it.


I completely agree with your summary and assessment of the situation, but I think there might be one other way they can reasonably break it: announce everything very far in advance of anything actually happening. For example, make a post that's at least as long as either of the Metamorphosis announcements. Explain the exact plans of when, how, and in what products they may be reprinted. Explain the timeline well in advance: for example, that the least valuable reserved cards will be taken off the list in six or eight years, and the next more valuable batch of reserved cards will come off the list a year or two after that, etc. Split it up so things don't all come off the list at once: two dozen cards come off the list in 2026, another two dozen come off in 2028, another two dozen in 2030, etc. Cards on the price scale of Black Lotus come off in the 2030's or just never come off the reserved list at all. It gives collectors and the community plenty of time to adapt, understand, discuss, raise objections, etc, all before anything at all is due to happen.

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 Post subject: Re: Writing a letter
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-30 4:28 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
A point I think ought be made here.

Let's take the perspective of WotC.

Let's say that you have received legal advice that abolishing the reserved list would open you up to legal action from collectors, stores, or whoever.

Even if your legal representation isn't *certain* you would lose such a case, that it is extremely likely to *lead to* legal action.

They could come up with whatever likelihood that you would win/lose such a case, based on where the legal action took place, who brought it, etc... maybe even to go so far as to guess how many cases would be brought, class-action status, how much you'd have to pay simply to defend yourselves, etc.

Your legal representation is going to tell you - never, ever, ever share these details. A public acknowledgement that such a case even could be brought and might be lost can be used against you.

My point is that it shouldn't surprise us that WotC doesn't talk about that side of things.

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 Post subject: Re: Writing a letter
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-31 12:33 am 

Joined: 2010-Mar-10 1:31 pm
Age: Dragon
"As it was in the beginning, so shall it be in the end"

so anyway, I've rearranged the letter, removed some language, reworded a couple of sentences. Re-phased a question, and included a related question.

It should be reminded that this is going to Hasbro not WotC, nor reddit,here or sal when it's finally written to a point that I feel confident enough in snail mailing it.

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onlainari wrote:
trappedslider wrote:
EDIT: so if i somehow manged to get down to 1 life,played Repay in Kind followed by Decree of Annihilation then it owuld be bad evil juju?

That's not how magic works. You can't equate cards and situations linearly like that!


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 Post subject: Re: Writing a letter
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-31 4:27 am 
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Joined: 2012-Jan-06 10:25 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Seattle
I would be fine with a gold/silver/purple/whatever bordered set that contains all the reserved list cards in it. They have reprint options. Just no options that lead to any format legal cards. They could package it into a "power cube" product. I'd most definitely buy it and I know many others who would as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Writing a letter
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-01 2:31 am 
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Joined: 2008-Dec-26 7:50 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Amsterdam, Holland
spacemonaut wrote:
Announce everything very far in advance of anything actually happening. For example, make a post that's at least as long as either of the Metamorphosis announcements. Explain the exact plans of when, how, and in what products they may be reprinted. Explain the timeline well in advance: for example, that the least valuable reserved cards will be taken off the list in six or eight years, and the next more valuable batch of reserved cards will come off the list a year or two after that, etc. Split it up so things don't all come off the list at once: two dozen cards come off the list in 2026, another two dozen come off in 2028, another two dozen in 2030, etc. Cards on the price scale of Black Lotus come off in the 2030's or just never come off the reserved list at all. It gives collectors and the community plenty of time to adapt, understand, discuss, raise objections, etc, all before anything at all is due to happen.

This does not alleviate some of the (potential) problems resulting from an RL abolishment:

  • The promise is still broken. Customer confidence in the company likely takes a hit.
  • Mass selloff of any card to be reprinted. Stability in the market is gone, drastically impacting the secondary market (even beyond RL cards as trading non-RL into RL and visa versa is a possibility). Customer confidence in the market likely takes a hit.*
  • More people have access to overpowered cards, leading to drastic meta changes, especially in casual groups. Confidence in the game itself likely takes a hit. **
I have nothing against a theoretical abolishment of the RL, but any plan should account for all negative effects. I dread the wider repercussions of an abolishment. In any case it may very well be better to not string it out over the years so that at least the problems can be dealt with at once rather than every 2 years.

* If I had to guess I would not be surprised to see Black Lotus drop to (I)CE price level upon an announcement of a potential reprint. If we happen to know what it'll be reprinted in I could see it stay higher if it was a very limited product (like the initial handout of promo Imperial Seal) or considerably lower if it was a mass market product (like in a Masters set). Obviously this is very wild speculation and I sincerely hope that we never find out unless a way to abolish the RL could be found that addresses all concerns.

** I think one person with a big collection in a meta tends to not be a problem: they likely do well if they know how to use the cards, but they can easily build for fun and match the group's power level (I'm such a player, some people advocate building at about 75% strength, personally I prefer to take a more unusual/weaker strategy, call it a 75% strategy, and then try for the full 100% to make it work). Once you get multiple people with lots of good cards you can easily trigger an arms race. In itself this is not a problem, groups have a natural tendency to do this to some extend, but, a sudden influx of very good cards may very well quickly move the meta away from the kind of games some players prefer. Groups may very well split by the kind of games the people prefer or lose people simply because they refuse to participate in the arms race and get burned out on the game altogether (I've seen this happen when we had some more competitive minded players with larger collections join my own group, the players who left wanted to feel they had a chance but didn't want to have to extensively tune their decks as to them it was more about hanging out and chilling together, something that got lost as the meta got stronger and the focus on winning increased).

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 Post subject: Re: Writing a letter
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-01 8:15 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Even if the RL was abolished, I cannot see any product ever that would reprint Black Lotus.

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 Post subject: Re: Writing a letter
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-01 11:37 am 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Viperion wrote:
Even if the RL was abolished, I cannot see any product ever that would reprint Black Lotus.


Vintage Masters did for MTGO. The power nine were given a rarity similar to Expeditions (not part of the base set, IIRC). It seemed to work well.

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Hazezon Tamar - Manland theme
Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
Progenitus - Hydra themed Proliferate Deck
Karona, the False God - Backstabbing Hug


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 Post subject: Re: Writing a letter
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-03 11:27 pm 

Joined: 2010-Mar-10 1:31 pm
Age: Dragon
so,any want me to post the letter as it currently stands now? Or are we still stuck on the give up all hope?

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onlainari wrote:
trappedslider wrote:
EDIT: so if i somehow manged to get down to 1 life,played Repay in Kind followed by Decree of Annihilation then it owuld be bad evil juju?

That's not how magic works. You can't equate cards and situations linearly like that!


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 Post subject: Re: Writing a letter
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-04 12:30 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Dragon
trappedslider wrote:
so,any want me to post the letter as it currently stands now? Or are we still stuck on the give up all hope?

Who's stuck on giving up all hope exactly..?

Don't get us wrong: many people including myself are hopeful that most or all of the RL will be repealed one day. Whether that will realistically happen is another matter. Whether your original letter would have accomplished anything is also yet another separate matter.

Post your revised letter if you want any feedback on it—up to you. But let's be clear, that's not you doing us all some huge favour and being our sole beacon of hope.

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Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


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 Post subject: Re: Writing a letter
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-04 5:08 am 

Joined: 2010-Mar-10 1:31 pm
Age: Dragon
This policy has been in place for coming on close to twenty-five years. The policy has now become another form of investment for those who could afford or be lucky enough to have gotten a hold of cards that have in some cases become equal to the value of some cars at retail price. It has also lead to some formats of the game to be outside of the budget of the average player,leading those players to seek out counterfeit cards. This I believe was never the intended outcome of the policy.
The policy itself has under gone a number of changes most recently in 2011. No one at Wizards of the Coast has been willing to speak to why it is still around. If it were simply due to any Non-disclosure agreements the fans and players would understand but we aren’t even told that. I would also like to point out that even the lead designer a Mr. Mark Rosewater has spoken out about his dislike of the policy a number of times in public. As have a number of commercial entities. What I am asking for you to do is to find out why the policy continues to exist or at the very least why no one is allowed to answer the question of why it’s still around. Another question I would like the answer to is: Under what circumstances would the reprint policy be modified again or even abolished?

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onlainari wrote:
trappedslider wrote:
EDIT: so if i somehow manged to get down to 1 life,played Repay in Kind followed by Decree of Annihilation then it owuld be bad evil juju?

That's not how magic works. You can't equate cards and situations linearly like that!


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 Post subject: Re: Writing a letter
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-05 1:52 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
trappedslider wrote:
so,any want me to post the letter as it currently stands now? Or are we still stuck on the give up all hope?

If you came here looking for a giant chorus of "yeah, you go girl, you can take on the world with the power of one voice" then I think you are being naive.

You have not been told to give up all hope and false cynicism does you no favors. Rather you have been told to take yourself a nice big pinch of salt and think about the right avenue of attack.

By all means, post your letter, send it to Hasbro, WOTC, the president and the pope if you like, just don't be surprised when you get nothing in response. You are a snowflake, you cannot move a boulder.

A snowflake can, however, start an avalanche, but only if it strikes the right place. I said it before, but I'll restate it here, if you actually want to make progress you must engage the weight of public opinion to the point that Hasbro cannot ignore it anymore. Your letter will fit neatly into the recycling bin. A thousand letters will fit in beside it. You need a truckload of letters, so first, you need support from the wider community.

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