Login | Register


All times are UTC - 7 hours


It is currently 2019-May-20 1:52 pm




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 122 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: The tragic truth of the internet.
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-27 5:12 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2011-Apr-25 12:43 pm
Age: Drake
Evilkritter wrote:
People don't show up on open forums to NOT complain. Regardless of outcome the response to any game-product release will be disproportionately negative. The people who are super excited share their excitement inside the communities they are already a part of, the people who are mildly positive won't go out of their way to share it, and the people who are mad will fire up their long-neglected accounts and post how mad they are.

Moreover this is the "first" commander release for a lot of people. Magic has been growing, and lots of people who started playing a few years ago have been playing commander for about a year. Now they are settling into their psychological position as "a player who knows what cards are good" without having the experience of the hype-ride from prior commander sets.

In a few years they will hatch into beautiful butterflies that realize every single Commander Precon has beaten its MSRP value in cards, and that reprinting in the Precons screws up their availablility by making them targets of buyouts. Reprints go in packs if you actually want the price to go DOWN.

And next year, once they have learned their lesson, it will be time for the next batch of new EDH-ers to ask that tricky question, "Why don't they put Thoughtsieze and Force of Will into a precon?".

On a more positive/personal note, Thantis, the Warweaver means I can have an on-theme Jund Spider tribal deck. I am SO hyped!


+1

Well said!

The Commander Pre-cons are the only magic cards I buy (or have bought in the past 5 years). I have ALL of the pre-cons sleeved and ready to play as they were released (no substitutions, adjusting, etc).

WotC has done a pretty good job of keeping the decks fairly balanced against each other. Obviously some will stomp others, especially 1v1, but overall they are pretty decent to play against each other despite the year of release.

_________________
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"No Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." - Thomas Jefferson
"Only fools are heroes - because you never know when some lunatic will come along with a sadistic choice."


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: C18
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-27 5:15 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
Evilkritter wrote:
And next year, once they have learned their lesson, it will be time for the next batch of new EDH-ers to ask that tricky question, "Why don't they put Thoughtsieze and Force of Will into a precon?"

I specifically avoided using those as an example when I used Scarecrone, since Scarecrone isn't a Legacy or Modern staple (that I know of, anyway) and its popularity seems to be mostly from Commander. Printing a solid Commander card in a Commander set to relieve its steadily growing price isn't that horrible to ask for. I know other people are asking for a lot more than this, but I do feel like there's a difference here.

_________________
Current:
Decklists are posted here. They can all be found in the Decklist Forum.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: C18
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-27 9:52 am 

Joined: 2017-Jun-13 4:56 am
Age: Drake
Segrus wrote:
Evilkritter wrote:
And next year, once they have learned their lesson, it will be time for the next batch of new EDH-ers to ask that tricky question, "Why don't they put Thoughtsieze and Force of Will into a precon?"

I specifically avoided using those as an example when I used Scarecrone, since Scarecrone isn't a Legacy or Modern staple (that I know of, anyway) and its popularity seems to be mostly from Commander. Printing a solid Commander card in a Commander set to relieve its steadily growing price isn't that horrible to ask for. I know other people are asking for a lot more than this, but I do feel like there's a difference here.


I think Scarecrone is a reasonable reprint, but I don't think it fits thematically with a non-horror non-scarecrow deck. It's a good card, it has some demand, but it would be called out as "weird" or "out of flavor" as a random throw in. I doubt it will see a reprint without a scarecrows matter subtheme, because it is recognizably a scarecrow tribal/synergy card. So it's delayed for creative direction reasons.

The Force of Will comment is more about the problem with having $40+ reprints in precons.

_________________
I'm like the Emily Litella of forums
Respect ought be given, though 'tis scarcely earned


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: C18
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-27 10:47 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
Evilkritter wrote:
Segrus wrote:
Evilkritter wrote:
And next year, once they have learned their lesson, it will be time for the next batch of new EDH-ers to ask that tricky question, "Why don't they put Thoughtsieze and Force of Will into a precon?"

I specifically avoided using those as an example when I used Scarecrone, since Scarecrone isn't a Legacy or Modern staple (that I know of, anyway) and its popularity seems to be mostly from Commander. Printing a solid Commander card in a Commander set to relieve its steadily growing price isn't that horrible to ask for. I know other people are asking for a lot more than this, but I do feel like there's a difference here.


I think Scarecrone is a reasonable reprint, but I don't think it fits thematically with a non-horror non-scarecrow deck. It's a good card, it has some demand, but it would be called out as "weird" or "out of flavor" as a random throw in. I doubt it will see a reprint without a scarecrows matter subtheme, because it is recognizably a scarecrow tribal/synergy card. So it's delayed for creative direction reasons.

The Force of Will comment is more about the problem with having $40+ reprints in precons.

It fits just fine in an artifact deck, pretty much any artifact deck, which we just got. Being able to return any artifact creature from the graveyard open it up and out of the limited scope you're giving it. It also got skipped over twice already since both Innistrad sets had scarecrows and are horror (acknowledging now that the first Innistrad set only had a single scarecrow, One-Eyed Scarecrow, but if they were considering scarecrows at all then Scarecrone had to have been considered and was rejected).

Things aren't "weird" or "out of flavor" when it comes to Commander precons if a justification can be given at all. Especially with these precons, where the themes were much broad than the previous Commander precons (which were meant to be strictly tribal).

_________________
Current:
Decklists are posted here. They can all be found in the Decklist Forum.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: C18
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-27 2:23 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Celerus wrote:
thaumaturge wrote:
Seriously, just go look at the original commander decks from 2011 or whenever it was. What cards introduced in that set do you still play today?

Commander (2011)Command Tower
Chaos Warp

_________________
sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: C18
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-28 3:28 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
I like it. The set has a lot of good reprints for new players. I would recommend these for anyone just getting into commander.

As an established player, the most exciting reprint for me was Azorius Signet.

_________________
3DH4L1F3


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: C18
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-28 1:28 pm 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Orlando, Florida
MRHblue wrote:
Celerus wrote:
thaumaturge wrote:
Seriously, just go look at the original commander decks from 2011 or whenever it was. What cards introduced in that set do you still play today?

Commander (2011)Command Tower
Chaos Warp

Homeward Path


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: C18
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-29 3:33 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
Cards introduced in the first Commander I still include one or more of the 99s today:


Cards I think are still decent, but I don't include them at the moment:


Spell Crumple would almost certainly continue to be a staple were tuck still a Commander killer.

13 of the 15 legendary creatures introduced remain popular Commander choices, but I don't see much of Ruhan of the Fomori or Basandra, Battle Seraph

Reprints in the first Commander that were/are format staples or otherwise extremely good cards (sorted in order of approximately how 'exciting' I believe they were at the time):


Reprints in the first Commander that were/are less flashy than the above reprints but still very good cards to obtain if new to the format:


Cards introduced in C18 I will likely include in one or more decks:
All of them. Well, maybe not, but overall I'm VERY happy with these.

Reprints in C18 as exciting/strong as the ones I listed from the first precons:


Reprints for C18 that, while not flashy, are very good for new players:


I couldn't possibly claim to be objective about these, as I am approaching them not from 'price' but from 'excitement', but I tried to be as fair as I could to both sets. Overall I think it's pretty clear that the new decks are not as strong as the originals, nor are they as good at giving new players a good start. I think they're fine, but I tend to agree with the people saying the reprints are overall a disappointment, so regardless of my previous collection buying the singles I want is probably a smarter move for me than buying the precons.

EDIT: I just realized I'm comparing how many good reprints there were among 5 decks to how many there are among 4. So overall I still think the C18 decks are not as rich in good reprints as the original Commander, but only just barely.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: C18
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-09 6:52 pm 

Joined: 2014-Apr-03 3:46 am
Age: Drake
archmagemc wrote:
The thing that really gets me about a lot of reactions I've seen on other sites is people saying "I'm really mad/disappointed/pissed off that they didn't reprint ($20-40 card)! It fits in perfectly with the theme!!!"

Did you really expect them to print a $40 card in a product who's MSRP is....$39.99?!?!

I put in all the decklists (minus the new cards) into mtggoldfish.com, and it showed every deck as coming in over $40. Jund was the lowest at $44 and Bant was the highest at $63.

I think the decklists look really interesting, and I'm eager to try them all out. I think Bant is going to be super crazy, while the other ones might be stronger late game. We'll see!


The jund deck is 22€ which is well below msrp and the value is only in new cards. Most ecpensive reprint is avenger of zendikar just under ONE euro.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: C18
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-09 11:41 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2011-Apr-25 12:43 pm
Age: Drake
illuknisaa wrote:
archmagemc wrote:
The thing that really gets me about a lot of reactions I've seen on other sites is people saying "I'm really mad/disappointed/pissed off that they didn't reprint ($20-40 card)! It fits in perfectly with the theme!!!"

Did you really expect them to print a $40 card in a product who's MSRP is....$39.99?!?!

I put in all the decklists (minus the new cards) into mtggoldfish.com, and it showed every deck as coming in over $40. Jund was the lowest at $44 and Bant was the highest at $63.

I think the decklists look really interesting, and I'm eager to try them all out. I think Bant is going to be super crazy, while the other ones might be stronger late game. We'll see!


The jund deck is 22€ which is well below msrp and the value is only in new cards. Most ecpensive reprint is avenger of zendikar just under ONE euro.


I just ran the deck again on mtggoldfish.com and it came up at $71.74. I also ran it on tcgplayer.com and it came up to 63.42.

So, still higher than MSRP for the entire deck, even if most of that amount is from the new cards.

_________________
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"No Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." - Thomas Jefferson
"Only fools are heroes - because you never know when some lunatic will come along with a sadistic choice."


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: C18
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-10 9:20 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
My only complaint about the new precons is literally that they've slowed down their reprinting of the Odyssey filters, and haven't considered sticking Shadowmoor/Eventide filters in them- as I think making these more available is key go maximizing cool stuff in the format.

But some of the crap I've read...

You guys do know that these are the most focused precons they've ever dropped, right? They have actual strategies in them, with actual synergy pieces that actually matter- and for Yawgmoth's sake, they even finally made a Lord Windgrace card. Like, holy crap- who saw that coming? Now you can stick Lord Windgrace into your Wasitora deck for ALL OF THE FLAVOR.

The real thing I encounter in the facebook group though is just expectations set far too high, and reality being nowhere near as disappointing as the claims that are being made suggest. The new EDH set has all of the cool precon staples- and things which solve lots of small design gaps that have existed like Coveted Jewel for Boros decks, and Windgrace's Judgment as an upsized Maelstrom Pulse.

Just saying- the killjoys are going to buy this crap up and just want to through a fit because the Saheeli deck isn't going to kill the price of Scalding Tarn

_________________
niheloim wrote:
Wall of Chat. 2U
Creature- Wall

Defender
Wall of chat exceeds at using a lot of words to mischaracterize opposing view points.

Warp Riders (Ephara Solar Flare)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: C18
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-10 6:58 pm 

Joined: 2014-Apr-03 3:46 am
Age: Drake
archmagemc wrote:
illuknisaa wrote:
archmagemc wrote:
The thing that really gets me about a lot of reactions I've seen on other sites is people saying "I'm really mad/disappointed/pissed off that they didn't reprint ($20-40 card)! It fits in perfectly with the theme!!!"

Did you really expect them to print a $40 card in a product who's MSRP is....$39.99?!?!

I put in all the decklists (minus the new cards) into mtggoldfish.com, and it showed every deck as coming in over $40. Jund was the lowest at $44 and Bant was the highest at $63.

I think the decklists look really interesting, and I'm eager to try them all out. I think Bant is going to be super crazy, while the other ones might be stronger late game. We'll see!


The jund deck is 22€ which is well below msrp and the value is only in new cards. Most ecpensive reprint is avenger of zendikar just under ONE euro.


I just ran the deck again on mtggoldfish.com and it came up at $71.74. I also ran it on tcgplayer.com and it came up to 63.42.

So, still higher than MSRP for the entire deck, even if most of that amount is from the new cards.


The us market is pure insanity. In eu cards have much saner prices. In the eu these precons are a total ripoff at msrp (~35e). Lot of sellers are selling the jund deck at 30% below msrp and even then its still a ripoff.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: C18
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-10 8:11 pm 

Joined: 2013-Jun-23 10:18 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Mr Degradation wrote:
.But some of the crap I've read...

You guys do know that these are the most focused precons they've ever dropped, right? They have actual strategies in them, with actual synergy pieces that actually matter.


I have to differ here.

Only two years of Commander products have been explicitly designed around themes (C17 and C18), and the tribal themes from last year were far more focused and coherent than the "lands-matter" Jund or "top of the library" Esper decks this time around. Have another look at these decklists and compare, because I feel like there's no contest unless you mean something very different by "focused" than I do:

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2017-08-11

_________________
Current Commanders: 6/32.

Daretti, Scrap Savant (Red Artefacts).
Prime Speaker Zegana (Simic Voltron).
Rubinia Soulsinger (Bant Polymorphs).
Kess, Dissident Mage (Grixis Treasure).
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper (Jund Apostles).
Tariel, Reckoner of Souls (Mardu Judo).


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: C18
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-12 3:59 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
Swmystery wrote:
Mr Degradation wrote:
.But some of the crap I've read...

You guys do know that these are the most focused precons they've ever dropped, right? They have actual strategies in them, with actual synergy pieces that actually matter.


I have to differ here.

Only two years of Commander products have been explicitly designed around themes (C17 and C18), and the tribal themes from last year were far more focused and coherent than the "lands-matter" Jund or "top of the library" Esper decks this time around. Have another look at these decklists and compare, because I feel like there's no contest unless you mean something very different by "focused" than I do:

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2017-08-11


Hate to be "that guy"- but tribal is never really a focus (it's the same issue as Voltron- where it never works out as a main strategy, but is often pretty good as a secondary angle- and I say this as someone who has been tinkering on a Kangee, Aerie Keeper deck with Bird synergies for a while.)

The Windgrace deck outlines a fairly typical Jund flavor of a "Rock" deck. It's packed with high impact removal, ramp, and a few ways of building up CA on a slow burn. The alt-commanders fill the same sorts of roles that would be typical of a Rock-style commander (my favorite being Thantis, the Warweaver. The Saheeli deck pushes avenues for spammy artifact synergy- focused on building large messy boardstates where counting the number of artifacts is key (Clock of Omens decks are a very real thing-), the Animatou deck focuses on Future Sight style topdeck manipulation (archetypically similar to Miracles, and including a couple fantastic miracle reprints, and a new miracle that mirrors Entreat the Angels)- and the Estrid deck focuses on a combination of mana producing enchantments, auras, and mass untap effects. These all have fairly broad strategies with lackluster Planeswalker Generals, but fantastic alts- and the pieces they want to dissolve into as archetypes for are fairly obvious. There's a genuine gameplan beyond having a Jojo's punch General on the cover art, and obvious plays that get broken every step of the way- and subthemes deeper than "equipment stuff and things."

Like, giving one of these to a player who understands MtG, but not EDH paints the picture for how to build a competent EDH deck far clearer than previous generations. Each deck has it's own means of generating card advantage, desirable boardstates- and breaking opposing momentum. They have to tools to handle the regular ebb and flow of a Commander playgroup- even if they aren't a premium grade out of the box.

That isn't to say that I didn't like C17- C16 and 17 were two of the best sets for parting out the deck's individual pieces, regardless of the products as their own EDH decks; and that too certainly has it's place (the more liberal reprinting of Kodama's Reach made me very pleased.) But as far as deck coherence goes- there were the Teferi and Freyalise decks, and pretty much little else this functional up until now. All of the other product has mostly been geared towards being things established players piece out for value- and this set has that to, but has more emphasis on the particular archetypal strategies they have on display- even if that means we have to wait another year for a Primal Vigor or Teferi's Protection reprint (but you weren't on that bandwagon regardless afaik.)

_________________
niheloim wrote:
Wall of Chat. 2U
Creature- Wall

Defender
Wall of chat exceeds at using a lot of words to mischaracterize opposing view points.

Warp Riders (Ephara Solar Flare)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: C18
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-13 10:32 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-09 4:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Mr Degradation wrote:
Hate to be "that guy"- but tribal is never really a focus (it's the same issue as Voltron- where it never works out as a main strategy, but is often pretty good as a secondary angle- and I say this as someone who has been tinkering on a Kangee, Aerie Keeper deck with Bird synergies for a while.)

How is tribal not a focus? Tribal has even entered the Magic vernacular now as being an interchangeable synonym with "theme," i.e., Atraxa as Planeswalker Tribal or Windgrace as Tribal Lands. I don't understand this argument.

Mr Degradation wrote:
The Windgrace deck outlines a fairly typical Jund flavor of a "Rock" deck. It's packed with high impact removal, ramp, and a few ways of building up CA on a slow burn. The alt-commanders fill the same sorts of roles that would be typical of a Rock-style commander (my favorite being Thantis, the Warweaver. The Saheeli deck pushes avenues for spammy artifact synergy- focused on building large messy boardstates where counting the number of artifacts is key (Clock of Omens decks are a very real thing-), the Animatou deck focuses on Future Sight style topdeck manipulation (archetypically similar to Miracles, and including a couple fantastic miracle reprints, and a new miracle that mirrors Entreat the Angels)- and the Estrid deck focuses on a combination of mana producing enchantments, auras, and mass untap effects. These all have fairly broad strategies with lackluster Planeswalker Generals, but fantastic alts- and the pieces they want to dissolve into as archetypes for are fairly obvious. There's a genuine gameplan beyond having a Jojo's punch General on the cover art, and obvious plays that get broken every step of the way- and subthemes deeper than "equipment stuff and things."

So, you have a Jund deck, which is a typical Jund deck - that is, a theme-less midrange valuefest that just runs good cards and removal to grind people out. You have Artifact Tribal. You have an Esper control deck with a thin veneer of theme in the form of "top of the deck matters," which is a hybrid of Miracles Tribal and "Hey, card quality really matters to control decks trying to match their answers against an entire pod's worth of threats, so why don't we make it so you can draw more or less exactly what you need every turn?". And then you have an Enchantress deck.

The way I see it, you have two theme decks, one goodstuff midrange deck, and one goodstuff control deck, versus last year where you have a Vampire aggro deck, a Wizard control deck, a Dragon midrange deck, and a Cat meme deck. I would still say last year was more focused.

_________________
kaldare wrote:
Printing generically and boringly powerful cards obviously intended for commander does the format zero favors.

Sidisi - Nin


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 122 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 35 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: