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 Post subject: Unbanning Karakas
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-07 12:53 am 

Joined: 2018-Jul-07 12:49 am
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As the format has grown, and as WotC is printing so many Legendary creatures , may it be time to unban Karakas? Or, at least do so on a trial basis?


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 Post subject: Re: Unbanning Karakas
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-07 11:59 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
hurricane219 wrote:
As the format has grown, and as WotC is printing so many Legendary creatures , may it be time to unban Karakas? Or, at least do so on a trial basis?
I don't think so, (almost) everyone has one available at all times, so you have almost zero downside to include it in a white deck, and neuter a pretty wide swath of decks centered around a legendary creature.

Pretty much the poster child for 'interacts poorly with the format'.

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 Post subject: Re: Unbanning Karakas
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-07 2:34 pm 
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More legendary creatures is an excellent argument to keep Karakas banned, not to unban it

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 Post subject: Re: Unbanning Karakas
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-07 9:12 pm 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I pulled Karakas from my cube because it was universally unfun to play against.


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 Post subject: Re: Unbanning Karakas
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-08 2:13 am 
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Though I wouldn't mind seeing a knock-off land with "<cost>, T: return a historic permanent you control to owner's hand." All the self-commander protection of Karakas, without the hate baggage of the original.

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 Post subject: Re: Unbanning Karakas
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-10 12:37 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-30 12:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
NO

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 Post subject: Re: Unbanning Karakas
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-10 5:01 am 
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Please no.

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 Post subject: Re: Unbanning Karakas
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-10 5:42 am 
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I'm pretty sure that if we had to strip the banned list down to just one card, many people would have that card be Karakas. I personally would pick Time Vault, but Karakas is at least in my top 5.

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 Post subject: Re: Unbanning Karakas
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-10 6:41 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
I'm pretty sure that if we had to strip the banned list down to just one card, many people would have that card be Karakas. I personally would pick Time Vault, but Karakas is at least in my top 5.

I'm conflicted by cards like Karakas because while there is one very good reason to leave it banned, the card has legitimate use. Plus, there are a number of Strip Mine lands which every can and should be running already (simply because of the sheer number of utility lands running around the format now). And part of me takes issue with banning cards that are easily dealt with.


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 Post subject: Re: Unbanning Karakas
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-10 7:53 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
cryogen wrote:
I'm conflicted by cards like Karakas because while there is one very good reason to leave it banned, the card has legitimate use. Plus, there are a number of Strip Mine lands which every can and should be running already (simply because of the sheer number of utility lands running around the format now). And part of me takes issue with banning cards that are easily dealt with.

Isnt this just 'dies to doomblade' in a different package?

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My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: Unbanning Karakas
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-10 9:08 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Yeah, and it's no argument here, the same as "run more answers" is never an argument anywhere else either - and it could be argued that not every deck has land destruction effects in it (a lot of mine sure don't).

Karakas is an instant-lose for any commander that doesn't natively have hexproof or shroud, and that ain't fun for anyone.

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 Post subject: Re: Unbanning Karakas
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-10 9:31 pm 
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Uktabi_Kong wrote:
I'm pretty sure that if we had to strip the banned list down to just one card, many people would have that card be Karakas. I personally would pick Time Vault, but Karakas is at least in my top 5.


Time Vault banned, everybody plays Primeval Titan to get Karakas. And because the legend rule is dumb nowadays everybody can have their Karakas on the tabel. But at least we don't have Time Vault.

cryogen wrote:
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
I'm pretty sure that if we had to strip the banned list down to just one card, many people would have that card be Karakas. I personally would pick Time Vault, but Karakas is at least in my top 5.

I'm conflicted by cards like Karakas because while there is one very good reason to leave it banned, the card has legitimate use. Plus, there are a number of Strip Mine lands which every can and should be running already (simply because of the sheer number of utility lands running around the format now). And part of me takes issue with banning cards that are easily dealt with.


Fair point. Primeval Titan gets your own Karakas and a Strip Mine to kill my Karakas. What could possibly go wrong?

I have to say that getting the reserved list down to 1 card was a fun thought excercise, this thread brought more than I had expected.

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 Post subject: Re: Unbanning Karakas
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-11 2:20 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
MRHblue wrote:
cryogen wrote:
I'm conflicted by cards like Karakas because while there is one very good reason to leave it banned, the card has legitimate use. Plus, there are a number of Strip Mine lands which every can and should be running already (simply because of the sheer number of utility lands running around the format now). And part of me takes issue with banning cards that are easily dealt with.

Isnt this just 'dies to doomblade' in a different package?

Yes, it is and I make no claims otherwise. I also reject the idea that the argument doesn't have some bit of validity. At some point we all have to take responsibility for our own actions as players.


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 Post subject: Re: Unbanning Karakas
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-11 2:24 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Viperion wrote:
Yeah, and it's no argument here, the same as "run more answers" is never an argument anywhere else either - and it could be argued that not every deck has land destruction effects in it (a lot of mine sure don't).

Karakas is an instant-lose for any commander that doesn't natively have hexproof or shroud, and that ain't fun for anyone.

Just because you don't run LD doesn't mean you *shouldn't*. And it's only an instant lose for decks that rely on their general and there isn't a more threatening general in play (or one that the owner wishes to protect).

Anyway, I'm not pro-Karakas, because I don't think it has a net positive. I already have two uphill battles to fight. My comment was simply more of a disagreement that it would be my one card ban list. Maybe top five though.


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 Post subject: Re: Unbanning Karakas
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-12 12:00 pm 

Joined: 2009-Feb-09 4:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I think people are reflexively against this card, but it strikes me as not being as bad as it seems.

What's auto-lose about it? Is it really stronger than a land like Cabal Coffers or Gaea's Cradle, which put one player so far ahead on the turn they land that they turn the game into Archenemy? Sure, Voltron generals don't like it, but 1) there are a ton of decent and widely-played ways to give your commander hexproof, 2) Voltron isn't a great deck type in general, 3) Karakas is significantly less punishing than simply killing someone's commander a bunch of times, particularly when the commander is CMC 6+.

How is it worse than playing against an Eminence commander, or a commander like Oloro, that just sits in the command zone all game and generates value? The partner commanders don't particularly care about it, since most of them are cheap and bouncing one won't affect the other.

It's color-locked. White decks can run it, but being a nonbasic is not free in this format. There are plenty of colorless nonbasic hate cards people should be running to have outs to other powerful lands. Furthermore, unless you're expecting everyone locally to run white just for Karakas, claims about saturation being reached seem hyperbolic to me (and if everyone is running white, run Gloom and laugh).

There are plenty of ways to soft- and hard-lock people in the format. The whole logic behind not banning artifact fast mana or infinite combos is that they're ubiquitous, so it would be a pain to nuke them all, and social pressure / multiplayer dynamics dampen their effects. How is Karakas any different? If someone is being annoying with it, attack them.

I think this card is fine to unban. The only drawback to me would be the expense, since the price would spike if it came off.

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