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 Post subject: Re: What is your stance on From the Ashes/Wave of Vitriol?
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-12 10:04 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Nigerian Prince wrote:
Destroying basic lands is considered a dick move in our playgroup, but non basics are fair game.

That makes no sense to me. I can completely understand targeting things like Gaea's Cradle or Kessig Wolf Run - they do insane things. Flushing non-basics that provide nothing but color fixing though... how is this somehow more OK than taking out basics? If the only sources of a certain color a player has on the field happen to be non-basic, that's somehow justification to color screw them?

Nigerian Prince wrote:
but no more than when cards like Cyclonic Rift, Void Winnower or Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger get cast.

You're kinda proving the point against FtA/WoV here - Void Winnower and Vorinclex are griefer cards, pure and simple.

Marit Lage wrote:
but I'm hoping liberal application of The Great Aurora, From the Ashes, and Wave of Vitriol can reverse the trend.

If the trend is "people enjoying their games" then I'm confident you will succeed.

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 Post subject: Re: What is your stance on From the Ashes/Wave of Vitriol?
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-12 3:48 pm 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Quote:
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Nigerian Prince wrote:
Destroying basic lands is considered a dick move in our playgroup, but non basics are fair game.

That makes no sense to me. I can completely understand targeting things like Gaea's Cradle or Kessig Wolf Run - they do insane things. Flushing non-basics that provide nothing but color fixing though... how is this somehow more OK than taking out basics? If the only sources of a certain color a player has on the field happen to be non-basic, that's somehow justification to color screw them?


So they lose 6 dual lands and a few utility lands and get 3-4 of each color in basics or whatever ratios they need. How exactly do they not have the lands they need still? (Aside from a greedy mana base) They're still fixed with all their colors and there are no more dangerous lands out. What is there to complain about?

Quote:
Nigerian Prince wrote:
but no more than when cards like Cyclonic Rift, Void Winnower or Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger get cast.

You're kinda proving the point against FtA/WoV here - Void Winnower and Vorinclex are griefer cards, pure and simple.


...and yet they still see a large amount of play. Is Rift a griefer card? They might see less if people actually play fair land destruction to slow down the ramp to 8+ mana viability.

Quote:
Marit Lage wrote:
but I'm hoping liberal application of The Great Aurora, From the Ashes, and Wave of Vitriol can reverse the trend.

If the trend is "people enjoying their games" then I'm confident you will succeed.


My enjoyment of a game played tonight actually improved after another player cast Cataclysm because it removed multiple Praetors, several dangerous artifacts and enchantments as well as stopped the Karametra player who had combo'ed off and pulled every basic from his deck already. He had a huge board out from multiple mana doublers but no haste. It didn't "screw" anyone out of the game cause he warned us so we held a couple land drops. Even the Karametra player shrugged it off cause he knew he deserved to be crippled for being greedy after the warning.

There are a lot of cards that you can't "rein in" with normal board wipes. Green does deserve to have a trump card so ramp isn't king of the format. The game gets better with more interaction. Declaring lands off limits stifles interaction. Yes, there are bad uses of land destruction just like there are bad uses of ramp and bad used of counters and bad uses of everything else...


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 Post subject: Re: What is your stance on From the Ashes/Wave of Vitriol?
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-12 6:05 pm 

Joined: 2015-Apr-23 11:27 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Nigerian Prince wrote:
Destroying basic lands is considered a dick move in our playgroup, but non basics are fair game.

That makes no sense to me. I can completely understand targeting things like Gaea's Cradle or Kessig Wolf Run - they do insane things. Flushing non-basics that provide nothing but color fixing though... how is this somehow more OK than taking out basics? If the only sources of a certain color a player has on the field happen to be non-basic, that's somehow justification to color screw them?


I guess it's some kind of gentlemen's agreement in our group that basic lands aren't messed with, so everyone makes sure to have the basics in your deck to support your mana base. Colorfixing non basics aren't targeted often either, but they have the built in risk that they are swept away by cards like FtA, WoV, Ruination, etc. Nobody will go out of their way to destroy a Drowned Catacomb, but you'll lose it more often than you lose your swamp or island. At least WoV gets you basics in return, so you still have plenty of acces to the colors you need if you included enough basics.

Sid the Chicken wrote:
Nigerian Prince wrote:
but no more than when cards like Cyclonic Rift, Void Winnower or Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger get cast.

You're kinda proving the point against FtA/WoV here - Void Winnower and Vorinclex are griefer cards, pure and simple.


These cards are played to slow opponents down in various ways, land/artifact destruction could be considered the same. Griefer cards are to prevent other players from actually playing the game, denying any fun to your opponents. As stated before, I see non basic land hate as a weapon for people who don't have the cardpools for expensive mana bases. People won't be that eager to destroy all non basics when you play Jungle Shrine and Rootbound Crag, but glee is dripping all over the table when they can take out some ABUR duals, Maze of Ith, Karakas and Gaea's Cradle.


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 Post subject: Re: What is your stance on From the Ashes/Wave of Vitriol?
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-12 8:52 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
syssc9 wrote:
Back in the day, I ran a "Vise Age" deck that consisted of 15 LD spells + 4 Strip Mine, 4 Black Vise (both restricted now), and 3 Nether Void as the lock piece. Crowd control was via 3 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and 3 Drop of Honey. Funny thing - no one else thought the Tabernacle was much good for anything back them, till they played against it.


That sounds like another version of the deck I ran 20+ yrs ago. Ankh of Mishra, Stone Rain, Active Volcano, Strip Mine, Lightning Bolt and 1 or 2 drop creatures. I could run on 3 land; while I kept them below 3 land, removed blockers with bolt, and let Ankh do most of the work.

I (generally) only pulled it out when people at college got too cocky or annoying. Though, admittedly, I enjoyed more competitive environments back then too.

Nigerian Prince wrote:
...but glee is dripping all over the table when they can take out some ABUR duals, Maze of Ith, Karakas and Gaea's Cradle.


Isn't Karakas Banned?

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 Post subject: Re: What is your stance on From the Ashes/Wave of Vitriol?
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-12 10:28 pm 

Joined: 2015-Apr-23 11:27 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
Treamayne wrote:
Nigerian Prince wrote:
...but glee is dripping all over the table when they can take out some ABUR duals, Maze of Ith, Karakas and Gaea's Cradle.


Isn't Karakas Banned?


Yup, but one of my friends found one in a bulk box he bought at a garage sale, we let him use it but he can't target commanders.


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 Post subject: Re: What is your stance on From the Ashes/Wave of Vitriol?
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-13 8:36 am 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Nigerian Prince wrote:
Yup, but one of my friends found one in a bulk box he bought at a garage sale, we let him use it but he can't target commanders.

Cool.

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V/R

HK

Hazezon Tamar - Manland theme
Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
Progenitus - Hydra themed Proliferate Deck
Karona, the False God - Backstabbing Hug


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 Post subject: Re: What is your stance on From the Ashes/Wave of Vitriol?
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-13 8:44 pm 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Out of curiosity, why would someone have more glee blowing up an ABUR dual than a Jungle Shrine? Once they're both in play, Shrine is the better target unless there is a strategic reason like Collective Restraint.


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 Post subject: Re: What is your stance on From the Ashes/Wave of Vitriol?
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-14 2:41 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
cryogen wrote:
Out of curiosity, why would someone have more glee blowing up an ABUR dual than a Jungle Shrine? Once they're both in play, Shrine is the better target unless there is a strategic reason like Collective Restraint.


I have no idea, but I have had my Underground Sea hit when I had a Command Tower or karoo land in play more times than I can count.

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Shabbaman wrote:
The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


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 Post subject: Re: What is your stance on From the Ashes/Wave of Vitriol?
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-14 6:33 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Inkeyes22 wrote:
cryogen wrote:
Out of curiosity, why would someone have more glee blowing up an ABUR dual than a Jungle Shrine? Once they're both in play, Shrine is the better target unless there is a strategic reason like Collective Restraint.


I have no idea, but I have had my Underground Sea hit when I had a Command Tower or karoo land in play more times than I can count.

Yeah I genuinely don't get it, and outside of a "I'm resentful of you for owning an expensive land", I can't think of a single reason why it would be beneficial to hit a dual land over one that taps for a broader range of mana (excepting random circumstances like my aforementioned Collective Restraint example).


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 Post subject: Re: What is your stance on From the Ashes/Wave of Vitriol?
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-14 10:31 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
cryogen wrote:
Inkeyes22 wrote:
cryogen wrote:
Out of curiosity, why would someone have more glee blowing up an ABUR dual than a Jungle Shrine? Once they're both in play, Shrine is the better target unless there is a strategic reason like Collective Restraint.


I have no idea, but I have had my Underground Sea hit when I had a Command Tower or karoo land in play more times than I can count.

Yeah I genuinely don't get it, and outside of a "I'm resentful of you for owning an expensive land", I can't think of a single reason why it would be beneficial to hit a dual land over one that taps for a broader range of mana (excepting random circumstances like my aforementioned Collective Restraint example).

There are a lot of those effects... I'd absolutely kill a non basic with a land type over a non basic without one given the choice unless it was an actually good non basic. Unless they're color screwed it doesn't matter if you hit their command Tower or Jungle Shrine.

Shutting them off from something like Valakut, Coffers, or Vedalken Shackles tend to have a bigger impact than cutting them down to two white sources.


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 Post subject: Re: What is your stance on From the Ashes/Wave of Vitriol?
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-14 10:58 pm 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Orlando, Florida
Epsilon wrote:
There are a lot of those effects... I'd absolutely kill a non basic with a land type over a non basic without one given the choice unless it was an actually good non basic. Unless they're color screwed it doesn't matter if you hit their command Tower or Jungle Shrine.

Shutting them off from something like Valakut, Coffers, or Vedalken Shackles tend to have a bigger impact than cutting them down to two white sources.

I'm in this camp as well. If it's got land types, and I've seen effects that care about what they've got type-wise, it can be a good enough target to warrant destruction.

I personally prefer hitting utility lands, or forcing a Strip Mine use, but other lands are fair game. Mana denial isn't the name of the game unless you're playing some Ponza EDH monstrosity.


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 Post subject: Re: What is your stance on From the Ashes/Wave of Vitriol?
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-18 1:43 am 
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Joined: 2014-Jul-28 8:30 am
Age: Dragon
Whenever I think of "greedy" manabases, I think of the three and four colored delver decks in legacy that run a handful of duals and fetches with no basics and make up for their low land count with stuff like Deathrite Shaman. I'd say the equivalent in EDH would be running very few basics and a lower than usual landcount, leaning on artifact mana and dorks to get there. Basically a manabase that will get punished hard by Blood Moon, Wave of Vitriol and the like. Mana bases can be expensive without being greedy, but not usually greedy without being expensive, if that makes sense.

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 Post subject: Re: What is your stance on From the Ashes/Wave of Vitriol?
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-23 9:01 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Nigerian Prince wrote:
These cards are played to slow opponents down in various ways, land/artifact destruction could be considered the same. Griefer cards are to prevent other players from actually playing the game, denying any fun to your opponents.

Winnower and Vorinclex are absolutely greifer cards. Winnower can easily prevent your opponents from interacting with your board, and Vorinclex means you often have to time-walk yourself to play your cards. That's way different than blowing up artifacts, and blowing up lands is pretty griefy too (unless they're the sort of lands that threaten to end the game in short order like mentioned above, or they're lands like Maze of Ith or Tabernacle that are there not to provide mana but some sort of other advantage.).

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 Post subject: Re: What is your stance on From the Ashes/Wave of Vitriol?
AgePosted: 2017-Sep-15 3:53 am 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
Maybe an Ixilan card will become a major staple (okay, probably not) and people will finally start running enough basics to eliminate this issue:
Image


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 Post subject: Re: What is your stance on From the Ashes/Wave of Vitriol?
AgePosted: 2017-Sep-16 5:26 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
intreped wrote:
Maybe an Ixilan card will become a major staple (okay, probably not) and people will finally start running enough basics to eliminate this issue:
Image

HA! A White Weenie Ramp card!

Exile my own tokens during the End of Combat step!

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