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 Post subject: Re: EDHREC
AgePosted: 2017-May-28 4:23 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
You are right that edhrec is the best we have. But don't kid yourself about it being reliable.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-selection_bias

In case you need some enlightenment.

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 Post subject: Re: EDHREC
AgePosted: 2017-May-31 5:09 am 
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Joined: 2017-May-01 12:07 am
Age: Hatchling
niheloim wrote:
You are right that edhrec is the best we have. But don't kid yourself about it being reliable.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-selection_bias

In case you need some enlightenment.


For sure it will never be reliable.
If you all have the opportunity read, Thinking; Fast and slow, from Daniel Kahneman.


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 Post subject: Re: EDHREC
AgePosted: 2017-May-31 5:39 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Rogério wrote:
niheloim wrote:
You are right that edhrec is the best we have. But don't kid yourself about it being reliable.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-selection_bias

In case you need some enlightenment.


For sure it will never be reliable.
If you all have the opportunity read, Thinking; Fast and slow, from Daniel Kahneman.

It good data, I suppose. Just not for drawing conclusions about the whole of the EDH population.

You have people who post online who might be very different than people who don't. You also have to contend with the deck lists themselves not being representative of what is being played given they are potentially idealized rather than physical lists.

As for the book- its actually on my reading list for the summer. My wife has read it and said I would love it.

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 Post subject: Re: EDHREC
AgePosted: 2017-May-31 11:58 am 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
niheloim wrote:
You also have to contend with the deck lists themselves not being representative of what is being played given they are potentially idealized rather than physical lists.

This is definitely true of my decks. It's been a long long time since I bought any new cards for any of my decks, but I keep an updated "ideal list" for each commander on Cockatrice, and those lists are the ones I uploaded to deckstats.net, so my "contributions" to EDHREC have been at least a little different from the decks I actually have. In some cases, very different; I don't even have a Kaseto deck, but I uploaded what I think I would want to build if I ever went for a UG commander.


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 Post subject: Re: EDHREC
AgePosted: 2017-May-31 7:11 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Dec-26 7:50 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Amsterdam, Holland
EDHREC is the best resource available, but this doesn't necessarily make it a good resource. What worries me most is the vicious circle of people looking at EDHREC, building and posting their deck based on what EDHREC suggests, which is then picked up by EDHREC. Similarly, if a person updates their list and updates their DeckStats or TappedOut listing this propagates to EDHREC, however, if they decide to post it as a new list EDHREC also sees it as a new entry. Basically there is bound the be some amount of duplicate data in EDHREC. I know they do some filtering on the data, but there will definitely be people like intreped who keep an ideal list that doesn't match the one they actually have and similarly people can have made updates that they haven't posted online. As such you can't be sure the data reflects reality. In both cases we can't know to what extend this is a problem with the data.

Of the people I've played with IRL I am the only one active online when it comes to Magic and even I only post some of my decks and then just on these forums. Obviously I don't know a large enough sample size to really be able to say anything about all players who play EDH. On the other hand, others online have posted about similar experiences and if enough people come to the conclusion that EDHREC doesn't represent their playgroups then there might be merrit to the conclusion that it doesn't represent EDH as a whole. I've seen quite a few remark that online lists don't match with what's found in their groups, but I can't rule out a bias because I can't perfectly remember everything I've ever seen and even if I could I may not have seen all the other discussions where people argued against it. At most I would claim it's my impression that online data is skewed and that to me it feels like it's skewed towards the competive side based on the things I've seen (flawed as my conclusions might be).

I like building my own decks. I sometimes google for specific card interactions, but I rarely google for other lists. I tend to go towards less common generals, in fact you may have seen the obscurity index calculation that is going round on Twitter, my 8 decks come out to 92%, one of the highest scores I've seen (https://twitter.com/cerietke/status/869885182907699201). Probably I am not an average EDH player either.

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 Post subject: Re: EDHREC
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-01 1:10 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
pi wrote:
I like building my own decks. I sometimes google for specific card interactions, but I rarely google for other lists. I tend to go towards less common generals, in fact you may have seen the obscurity index calculation that is going round on Twitter, my 8 decks come out to 92%, one of the highest scores I've seen (https://twitter.com/cerietke/status/869885182907699201). Probably I am not an average EDH player either.

I'm with you on this. I like looking for odd things to play that fit into decks, even if I build a common commander.

I just put together Atraxa, but I was looking for interesting things where counters matter. So things like Dreadship Reef go in. Then I remember I have a Jeweled Amulet... seems like a no-brainer. Of the 2900+ Atraxa decks on EDHREC it seems to be in only three of them. The top Commander running the Amulet is mono-black Sidisi.

I don't know if I would fit into the "average" category of edh player, but I do know that the recommendations on EDHREC are too generic to represent me.

Maybe it needs an oddball recommendation option? Maybe it has one that I don't know about?

pi wrote:

I was looking at this. I don' like the idea of subtracting the percentage, but I would need to think on a better way. Maybe a sum of averages over your total number of decks? I dunno.

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 Post subject: Re: EDHREC
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-01 9:12 am 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
pi wrote:
I like building my own decks. I sometimes google for specific card interactions, but I rarely google for other lists. I tend to go towards less common generals, in fact you may have seen the obscurity index calculation that is going round on Twitter, my 8 decks come out to 92%, one of the highest scores I've seen (https://twitter.com/cerietke/status/869885182907699201). Probably I am not an average EDH player either.

Considering how many decks I keep around, I'm guessing my index is insanely low, but I'm not entirely sure that means I don't like building my own decks or that I'm an average EDH player.

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 Post subject: Re: EDHREC
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-01 9:28 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Segrus wrote:
pi wrote:
I like building my own decks. I sometimes google for specific card interactions, but I rarely google for other lists. I tend to go towards less common generals, in fact you may have seen the obscurity index calculation that is going round on Twitter, my 8 decks come out to 92%, one of the highest scores I've seen (https://twitter.com/cerietke/status/869885182907699201). Probably I am not an average EDH player either.

Considering how many decks I keep around, I'm guessing my index is insanely low, but I'm not entirely sure that means I don't like building my own decks or that I'm an average EDH player.

The number of decks doesn't matter if you average them out. I have 36 decks that left me at a 74% obscure. I have some lesser known decks like Seton, White Akroma, Bosh... but then I also have Atraxa, Breya, and so on.

My issue is that Obscurity as a percentage doesn't mean anything. I would like to see what the average obscurity % is for comparison.

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 Post subject: Re: EDHREC
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-01 9:48 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Dec-26 7:50 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Amsterdam, Holland
I didn't mean to distract from the discussion with that rating, just meant to illustrate that I tend towards less played generals.

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 Post subject: Re: EDHREC
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-02 9:38 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
No. I think its a good use of the data.

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 Post subject: Re: EDHREC
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-14 10:21 am 

Joined: 2011-Jan-03 4:23 pm
Age: Drake
My apologies for awakening the thread, but I didn't see the point of making a new thread when something like this was still on the front page.

There's definitely a question of how useful EDHRec is if you're trying for something better than mere goodstuff. I bring up my Rashmi EtB chart (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/eternity ... 1521068960) as an example. Looking at Rashmi's top cards page (https://edhrec.com/commanders/rashmi-eternities-crafter) does not elicit much in the way of EtB work. Panharmonicon isn't even among the artifacts recommended!

(On a side note, I think the recent changes to the site replaced the Signature Cards with the New Cards...Happened just today, so they may not have had time to react just yet.)

Point being, the fact that everything is averaged together from multiple archetypes does little if you're going for a cohesive theme.


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 Post subject: Re: EDHREC
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-14 11:40 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Skyknight wrote:
Point being, the fact that everything is averaged together from multiple archetypes does little if you're going for a cohesive theme.

Unless you're looking at a general like Nekusar or literally anyone in a popular tribe, in which case you have the opposite problem.

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 Post subject: Re: EDHREC
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-18 1:55 am 

Joined: 2009-Mar-20 8:43 am
Age: Wyvern
I think that there are issues with using EDHREC as a data mine.

I feel that consideration should be given to the concurrentness of the data amongst the card spectrum. Given these considerations, I think that it is possible to formulate statistical hypotheses that one may attempt to reject, such as whether a particular commander or a particular card has become viral (i.e. charting frequency vs date). Indirectly, it's probably possible to parse this information from the database using a script. However, until there is data to help determine whether a viral strategy is oppressive (i.e. match results) the reach of EDHREC is essentially as just a filterable poll for the most popular cards that have been presented by motivated contributors. And as has been brought to attention by others, is EDHREC, itself, a random sample of the population of EDH decks?

There is little doubt that EDHREC is a community tool. However, I'm uncertain about those conclusions, which may be drawn from it. To note, it's a scanner at the very least.


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