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 Post subject: Re: How do you y'all deal with Cyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-May-16 5:42 am 
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iplaymtg wrote:
Mr Degradation wrote:
It's just a soft reset, those happen frequently in EDH.


It's not a "reset". It's a one-sided board wipe. It makes all their attackers unblockable, all stax permanents gone, etc. On top of that, it's instant speed, so the caster gets to untap and "rebuild" right away, even though literally nothing of theirs was "reset".

In most situations it's game-ending, like most 7 mana spells. That's why I'm asking: What are your answers? Are there more? I certainly need them in my non-blue decks.


It IS a reset. Whether or not the cardtext prescribes it as effecting every player or not, EVERYONE plays their wipes in a manner that effects them least- whether that's playing Indestructible things with Wrath of God and Rout, playing Mulldrifter with Evacuation, or playing Blood Artist spam with Toxic Deluge. This is a basic concept in just playing Magic- you play around resets by making them unable to put you into an immediately losing position. Trying to answer the answer, forces you into a losing situation- where answering the things that beat you makes. rift. worse. The worse you make rift, the more suboptimal it becomes to play it, because it's a mana intensive way to handle the board, and if you can't force a win through it, you are likely to fall behind very quickly by holding up 7 mana for an answer and not using your own turn.

You don't need to tech rift, you need to make it a suboptimal play by interacting with your opponent's board development- so that the Rift has to be played to protect Rift player. That's a huge part of EDH as a format in both play and deck design. If you are getting blown out by Rift, you probably just aren't playing enough removal, or are playing too many cumbersome mana costs that don't help you interact with your opponent's position (like your own wipes and removal.)

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 Post subject: Re: How do you y'all deal with Cyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-May-16 5:47 am 
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Mr Degradation wrote:
It IS a reset. Whether or not the cardtext prescribes it as effecting every player or not, EVERYONE plays their wipes in a manner that effects them least- whether that's playing Indestructible things with Wrath of God and Rout, playing Mulldrifter with Evacuation, or playing Blood Artist spam with Toxic Deluge.


My apologies. I was under the misinformed belief that "reset" in a game of magic meant to set the game back to a previous state.


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 Post subject: Re: How do you y'all deal with Cyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-May-16 6:54 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
page04z wrote:
Epsilon wrote:

Because you paid 4 mana for exactly the same effect as reverberate? You can't change targets when there aren't any and Wild Ricochet doesn't change ownership of the spell.


I'm more or less asking why this wouldn't be helpful on an overloaded cyclonic rift, you said it's not any better unless we are talking about a non overloaded cyclonic rift.

Anyway, when i said my dream response was wild ricochet, i was talking about copying an overloaded cyclonic rift. Not casting that exact spell.

The way you're talking is like you think it wouldn't work. "It's not any better than reverberate." Well, reverberate is pretty fucking good against an overloaded cyclonic rift.

Part of the Joy of Wild Ricochet is changing targets, which is why it costs 4.

No one is talking that Ricochet doesn't work, only that it is functionally the same as Reverberate but for double the cost.

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 Post subject: Re: How do you y'all deal with Cyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-May-16 7:13 am 

Joined: 2013-Oct-09 7:02 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Cyclonic Rift needs dealing with? Cyclonic Rift is an answer type card. That's like asking how do you deal with Terror? All you gotta do to "deal" with it is just not get completely blown out by a single answer. So I guess don't overextend. Or if you're losing to the Rift player's board state after the Rift resolves, don't let them get a game winning board state.

I have literally never seen Cyclonic Rift end a game.


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 Post subject: Re: How do you y'all deal with Cyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-May-16 8:27 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
MrCool wrote:
Cyclonic Rift needs dealing with? Cyclonic Rift is an answer type card. That's like asking how do you deal with Terror? All you gotta do to "deal" with it is just not get completely blown out by a single answer. So I guess don't overextend. Or if you're losing to the Rift player's board state after the Rift resolves, don't let them get a game winning board state.

I have literally never seen Cyclonic Rift end a game.

neither have I, except in the case of one player refusing to attack the guy with rift.

We got rifted. The Rift player recurs it immediately. The most aggresive deck at the table refused to attack because he didnt want to get rifted again (please read that as "because he was a moron"). So we lost because the Rifter was left alone.

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 Post subject: Re: How do you y'all deal with Cyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-May-16 8:29 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
MrCool wrote:
I have literally never seen Cyclonic Rift end a game.


Then you haven't been playing enough Commander games.

(Unless you're talking about this literally, in which case yes, Cyclonic Rift doesn't end games. But it helpful contributes to that event.)

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 Post subject: Re: How do you y'all deal with Cyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-May-16 8:54 am 

Joined: 2013-Oct-09 7:02 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Maluko wrote:
MrCool wrote:
I have literally never seen Cyclonic Rift end a game.


Then you haven't been playing enough Commander games.

(Unless you're talking about this literally, in which case yes, Cyclonic Rift doesn't end games. But it helpful contributes to that event.)

I mean... I guess that is what I mean. I've done eot rift into armageddon. I guess rift won me that game. But so did armageddon.

If you play terror on an elesh norn so that you can combo off with squirrel nest and earthcraft, would it be accurate to say terror won the game? I don't think so.

The point is that someone playing a terror on your creature or a rift on your board should not typically end the game without significant follow up and it is the follow up that is winning them the game.


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 Post subject: Re: How do you y'all deal with Cyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-May-16 1:04 pm 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Maluko wrote:
MrCool wrote:
I have literally never seen Cyclonic Rift end a game.


Then you haven't been playing enough Commander games.


Why would you make this assumption? It's a strong card but by no means is it a game ender. Maybe his playgroup knows how to keep it in check. Playing more isn't going to lead to it suddenly becoming stronger in a meta that runs sufficient removal.

In nearly every scenario that a rift "ends the game", the game would also be won by a Falter or a Cryptic Command type effect because all it's doing is removing blockers or maybe a propaganda. Rift is not "ending the game" if you don't already have a significant board state capable of killing multiple players. Dozens of cheaper spells will end in exactly the same way with such a board state. The best advice is to not let board states get that chaotic in the first place.

It's been a long time since a rift has ended games in any of the groups I play in... at least not because of some EoT rift -> swing scenario. The last time I played it was in response to an activation of Shaman of Forgotten Ways in which it killed the guy activating the biorhythm and one other player that couldn't generate tokens after it resolved. It's generally just a bad wipe that lets people double up on ETBs though.


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 Post subject: Re: How do you y'all deal with Cyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-May-16 1:52 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
MrCool wrote:
Maluko wrote:
MrCool wrote:
I have literally never seen Cyclonic Rift end a game.


Then you haven't been playing enough Commander games.

(Unless you're talking about this literally, in which case yes, Cyclonic Rift doesn't end games. But it helpful contributes to that event.)

I mean... I guess that is what I mean. I've done eot rift into armageddon. I guess rift won me that game. But so did armageddon.

If you play terror on an elesh norn so that you can combo off with squirrel nest and earthcraft, would it be accurate to say terror won the game? I don't think so.

The point is that someone playing a terror on your creature or a rift on your board should not typically end the game without significant follow up and it is the follow up that is winning them the game.

i think its interesting to go back and look at what was the most influential in a win.

I played a game the other day with Bosh. My hand had Scrap Mastery and nothing much else. my buddy drops Mindcrank and Painful Quandry that just let me fill my yard. what won the game? Bosh+Grafted Exoskeleton? Scrap Mastery? or my friend inadvertently setting me up?

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 Post subject: Re: How do you y'all deal with Cyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-May-16 5:20 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
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Location: Oakland, CA
Epsilon wrote:
Rift is one of the most overrated cards in the format.

Don't let them get to a point where they can use it offensively by wrathing regularly and keeping pressure up. This keeps them from being able to use it as an extremely overcosted "creature's cant block this turn" which tends to be the most complained about mode. He payed 7 mana for a 2-4 mana effect. Why are you complaining? There are dozens of cheaper spells that would have lead to your death in the same board state. Wipe the board.

Oh, dear, not this again. Next you're going to remind us that it isn't played as often as Sol Ring, so isn't a good card, Q.E.D, and that we should just play Sleep instead.

(I'm just having some fun with you)

Yes, sweepers and other removal are actually surprisingly effective against the Rift player, even though they don't seem to interact with Rift itself. Instant-speed sweepers are especially good, like Rout or Fated Retribution if the Rift player has a creature-based strategy, and Fracturing Gust if they're more enchantment-based pillow-fort. From my point of view, that doesn't make Rift 'overrated,' it just means there are more ways to answer it than just countering it.


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 Post subject: Re: How do you y'all deal with Cyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-May-17 2:34 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Epsilon wrote:
Why would you make this assumption? It's a strong card but by no means is it a game ender. Maybe his playgroup knows how to keep it in check. Playing more isn't going to lead to it suddenly becoming stronger in a meta that runs sufficient removal.

In nearly every scenario that a rift "ends the game", the game would also be won by a Falter or a Cryptic Command type effect because all it's doing is removing blockers or maybe a propaganda. Rift is not "ending the game" if you don't already have a significant board state capable of killing multiple players. Dozens of cheaper spells will end in exactly the same way with such a board state. The best advice is to not let board states get that chaotic in the first place.

It's been a long time since a rift has ended games in any of the groups I play in... at least not because of some EoT rift -> swing scenario. The last time I played it was in response to an activation of Shaman of Forgotten Ways in which it killed the guy activating the biorhythm and one other player that couldn't generate tokens after it resolved. It's generally just a bad wipe that lets people double up on ETBs though.

1. Fair enough, although I'm skeptical that the "playgroup" is a major factor in preventing Rift from winning games or contribute to victory. But I guess I'd have to see his metagame to say this with certainty.

2. First of all, saying "nearly all scenarios" is pushing it a bit. Cyclonic Rift removes everything, not just creatures. Like you said yourself, removing a Propaganda is not something that Falter can do, for instance. Second, Rift is by far more omnipresent than any card you could possibly have mentioned that removes blockers from the table. I don't need to point again to the statistics found on EDHREC, which pretty much say that if your deck is playing blue, you're playing a 99 card + Cyclonic Rift deck. How often do you see people asking around for answers to Cryptic Command/Falter/Sleep/etc.?

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 Post subject: Re: How do you y'all deal with Cyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-May-17 7:22 am 
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Could we for the rest of time on these boards not use EDHREC as a source? It's a pretty decent resource for deckbuilding ideas, but it's terrible to try to describe EDH as a whole. Its sample size is too small, and the results are confounded by the fact that every deck on the site comes from someone who specifically put it there. I've built, edited, played, rebuilt, and dismantled probably somewhere around 50 different decks (including having the same deck but changing its focus over and over). I have yet to post on EDHREC once, and as far as I know nobody I've played with in the last couple years has either.

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 Post subject: Re: How do you y'all deal with Cyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-May-17 10:36 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Could we for the rest of time on these boards not use EDHREC as a source? It's a pretty decent resource for deckbuilding ideas, but it's terrible to try to describe EDH as a whole. Its sample size is too small, and the results are confounded by the fact that every deck on the site comes from someone who specifically put it there. I've built, edited, played, rebuilt, and dismantled probably somewhere around 50 different decks (including having the same deck but changing its focus over and over). I have yet to post on EDHREC once, and as far as I know nobody I've played with in the last couple years has either.

yeah, but how many of your builds included sol ring? How many blue included Rift?

Cyclonic Rift is one of those cards that I would always play if I owned enough copies.

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 Post subject: Re: How do you y'all deal with Cyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-May-17 5:36 pm 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Maluko wrote:
1. Fair enough, although I'm skeptical that the "playgroup" is a major factor in preventing Rift from winning games or contribute to victory. But I guess I'd have to see his metagame to say this with certainty.

2. First of all, saying "nearly all scenarios" is pushing it a bit. Cyclonic Rift removes everything, not just creatures. Like you said yourself, removing a Propaganda is not something that Falter can do, for instance. Second, Rift is by far more omnipresent than any card you could possibly have mentioned that removes blockers from the table. I don't need to point again to the statistics found on EDHREC, which pretty much say that if your deck is playing blue, you're playing a 99 card + Cyclonic Rift deck. How often do you see people asking around for answers to Cryptic Command/Falter/Sleep/etc.?


1. Rift was overloaded twice in games I played tonight. In both cases it did not lead the caster to victory nor do much more than force the one player who got it EOT to discard. I don't think in either of the games there were more than 3-4 creatures per player before a wipe was played. In one of the games that happened before I started playing, a player had an E Witness chain that returned rift to his hand every turn and he used it every turn cycle. He still lost. The metagame is a HUGE factor in the power of individual cards.

2. What scenarios are unique to a rift victory? The magical christmasland scenario where the turtle deck has every Propaganda effect in play? I'm pretty sure that's both extremely rare to find such a deck as well as extremely luck based in which case my "nearly all scenarios" still fits just fine. There are still, as I said, dozens of cheaper spells that will lead to victory in the same scenarios. My specific examples are not necessarily perfect in every scenario but that doesn't really change the point that using it in such a position is making it an overcosted command or "creature's can't block".

I have enough copies to play it in every deck I own and at one point I probably did. It's currently in 0 of my decks playing blue and MIGHT make the cut in one of the two decks with blue that I am currently planning on building. Super friends since it effectively will buy my walkers two turns but so will several other cheaper instant speed spells... It will not make it into Rashmi because overload is not friendly to CMC matters decks. It's a strong card but it's far from an auto include.

As Uktabi Kong mentioned, EDH REC is NOT an all inclusive data source. Regardless of how many sites it pulls data from, the majority of decks never make it online to begin with.

Omnipresence is not synonymous with power level. Counterspell, a card that may as well be unplayable in this format since it only does one thing and leaves the card in the graveyard is in at least three times as many decks as Arcane Denial, Force of Will, Cryptic Command, Mana Drain, Rewind, Forbid, Dissipate, Hinder, Spell Crumple, Desertion, Pact of Negation, Mystic Confluence... All of which are generally superior in this format but some are being limited by being expensive, scarce or potentially build/meta specific.

Intrepid wrote:
From my point of view, that doesn't make Rift 'overrated,' it just means there are more ways to answer it than just countering it.


Overrate - "have a higher opinion of (someone or something) than is deserved"

So you're agreeing that the suggestions people are making are extremely effective at gimping the power of the spell but the spell isn't overrated when playing more intelligently?

The very first post states that "in most situations it's game ending" which is patently false. It's only ever "game ending" when board states are out of control. "This spell is so strong that if it resolves the game is over" is a pretty common complaint about this card specifically. Threads like this pop up all the time cause people don't know how to deal with the card. How is it not a grossly overrated card? Yes, it's powerful but it's not nearly as powerful as most people make it out to be.


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 Post subject: Re: How do you y'all deal with Cyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-May-17 5:57 pm 

Joined: 2016-Aug-15 1:21 pm
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Mr Degradation wrote:
It IS a reset. Whether or not the cardtext prescribes it as effecting every player or not, EVERYONE plays their wipes in a manner that effects them least- whether that's playing Indestructible things with Wrath of God and Rout, playing Mulldrifter with Evacuation, or playing Blood Artist spam with Toxic Deluge. This is a basic concept in just playing Magic- you play around resets by making them unable to put you into an immediately losing position. Trying to answer the answer, forces you into a losing situation- where answering the things that beat you makes. rift. worse. The worse you make rift, the more suboptimal it becomes to play it, because it's a mana intensive way to handle the board, and if you can't force a win through it, you are likely to fall behind very quickly by holding up 7 mana for an answer and not using your own turn.

You don't need to tech rift, you need to make it a suboptimal play by interacting with your opponent's board development- so that the Rift has to be played to protect Rift player. That's a huge part of EDH as a format in both play and deck design. If you are getting blown out by Rift, you probably just aren't playing enough removal, or are playing too many cumbersome mana costs that don't help you interact with your opponent's position (like your own wipes and removal.)


This is part of why I say Spore Frog counters Cyclonic Rift. Rift goes on the stack, Frog gets used, and attacking means nothing that turn. In my play group, the Frog normally comes back immediately while Rift stays in the graveyard. One mana Frog VS seven mana Rift.

Spore Frog and friends are how my play group deals with Cyclonic Rift, Overwhelming Stampede, and many other cards. It's annoying to see it every game, but it answers a lot of different things, is easy to get back, and a pain to exile if someone knows how to protect it. I actually think I've Cloned a Spore Frog before.

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