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 Post subject: Top banned in Legacy
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-24 2:40 am 
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Joined: 2013-Oct-26 9:21 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Xenia, OH, USA
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2017-04-24

I say, about time. now if we could pull the trigger in Commander to get rid of it too. It slows down way too many games needlessly. Most players use it to stall, which is a side effect of what the card does, but when it just prolongs the game for no good reason, it really needs to go.


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 Post subject: Re: Top banned in Legacy
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-24 2:51 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I understand that it does delay games... But that is a player problem and this is not a competitive format, if they suck to play against then either talk to them or don't play with them.

Why do people want to ban cards we paid good money for?

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 Post subject: Re: Top banned in Legacy
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-24 5:07 am 
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Joined: 2007-Mar-28 12:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Otaria
Here's hoping it becomes significantly cheaper, instead. It's a fine card with players who understand the time issue and work to alleviate it.

(There are three turns worth of dead time. Spin the top early and we can retcon if it really matters.)

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 Post subject: Re: Top banned in Legacy
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-24 12:34 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I don't know if agree with this ban. I understand the time issue, but could have banned something else that was good in the deck. Sucks to ban a card not really because of power level, but rather because it causes longer turns. Good players don't have too much issue. You either set up your miracle, your fetch, or your cmc, and move on.


tgambitg wrote:
Most players use it to stall

What? Who does this? This is not like running own the clock in many physical sports...

Jeyal wrote:
(There are three turns worth of dead time. Spin the top early and we can retcon if it really matters.)

Sadly i can't get anyone to stop dicking around like this, and that's all it is. I hate feeling like this, but sometimes i think people who need to play so tight they MUST wait until the end step need to get an effing life.

I also play fetches, announce what i'm fetching and ask for a response, then cast my spell before actually fetching so i may pass the turn and dig through library on their turn (unless that spell requires my library, like Fact or Fiction, but usually if a spell requires my library it's a tutor, and i will tutor and fetch at the same time)
Somehow i cannot get people to just god damn fetch while everyone else is durdling their turn, and they have to wait until the end step to decide between Temple Garden and Canopy Vista. I hate getting salty over nothing, but holy crap you dorks.


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 Post subject: Re: Top banned in Legacy
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-25 12:05 am 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
So, it probably isn't even for the timing issue- and I'm still surprised that in the last 6 years it hasn't actually been banned in EDH (granted, it used to be the format's mascot before Sol Ring reprints started occuring.)

In Legacy, the top lets you more reliably use Miracles and Counterbalance (which is nuts.)

In EDH, it does all of the same things, but we obey singleton rules, so it finds one of your several tutors to assemble combos- and while it certainly isn't the only card that does so, it is the only card that can both supply the effect multiple times AND defend itself.

With that in mind though, the primary reason to houseban top is best understood through a 4 player game in which everyone gets their top. Even the most salted, experienced, decisive players become time wasting masters when they always have the option to spin their top in a format defined by it's ludicrous average mana development.

Loosely related question, what's with Wizards' hesitation to put Scroll Rack in Commander products? It's certainly not as powerful or time consuming as Oath of Druids, or Deepglow Skate

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 Post subject: Re: Top banned in Legacy
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-25 3:42 am 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-19 12:15 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Sacramento, CA
It wouldn't bother me if they banned Top in Commander.

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 Post subject: Re: Top banned in Legacy
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-25 4:39 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
Celerus wrote:
It wouldn't bother me if they banned Top in Commander.


Would probably be a great thing for me if they did. I keep way too many "low-mana + Top" hands in the belief that they will work out.

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 Post subject: Re: Top banned in Legacy
AgePosted: 2017-May-15 8:30 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Aug-13 2:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
I would feel better about the top if it was only used for setting up your draw step.

It's the "in response to your spell, use the top, crack a fetchland, shuffle, use the top again" dance you have to go through with some players whenever someone tries to resolve a game-altering spell.

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 Post subject: Re: Top banned in Legacy
AgePosted: 2017-May-16 6:59 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Malekoda wrote:
I would feel better about the top if it was only used for setting up your draw step.

It's the "in response to your spell, use the top, crack a fetchland, shuffle, use the top again" dance you have to go through with some players whenever someone tries to resolve a game-altering spell.

thats the kind of nonsense that needs to be figured out way ahead of time. If a player is waiting until big spells to crack fetches and check the top of library then they need to stop playing top.


This is very similar to my dislike or Karametra. So much shuffling... such a waste of my time.

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 Post subject: Re: Top banned in Legacy
AgePosted: 2017-May-16 11:32 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
niheloim wrote:
This is very similar to my dislike or Karametra. So much shuffling... such a waste of my time.

Unless they're running like 7 landfall effects, is there any reason they can't just say "I'm going to cast 3 creatures this turn" and search for three lands at once?

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 Post subject: Re: Top banned in Legacy
AgePosted: 2017-May-16 1:14 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
niheloim wrote:
Malekoda wrote:
I would feel better about the top if it was only used for setting up your draw step.

It's the "in response to your spell, use the top, crack a fetchland, shuffle, use the top again" dance you have to go through with some players whenever someone tries to resolve a game-altering spell.

thats the kind of nonsense that needs to be figured out way ahead of time. If a player is waiting until big spells to crack fetches and check the top of library then they need to stop playing top.

The waste of time with Top is setting up your next draw and waiting until the last player on your right's end step.

Against a game altering spell you definitely want to see 6 cards for an answer if you have that ability. If no one casts a game altering spell, you will likely want a different card on top. I mean you certainly don't spin the top and put a counterspell up when you have a game-altering spell of your own you'd rather for your turn. But when an enemy game altering spell is cast, you don't want your 8 mana sorcery as your next draw.


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 Post subject: Re: Top banned in Legacy
AgePosted: 2017-May-16 1:42 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Aug-13 2:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Sovarius wrote:
Against a game altering spell you definitely want to see 6 cards for an answer if you have that ability. If no one casts a game altering spell, you will likely want a different card on top. I mean you certainly don't spin the top and put a counterspell up when you have a game-altering spell of your own you'd rather for your turn. But when an enemy game altering spell is cast, you don't want your 8 mana sorcery as your next draw.

Exactly. The problem with the top is that the optimal way to use it is to wait as long as possible, to make sure you have all the information. Which makes everyone else have to sit and wait.

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 Post subject: Re: Top banned in Legacy
AgePosted: 2017-May-16 1:45 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
niheloim wrote:
This is very similar to my dislike or Karametra. So much shuffling... such a waste of my time.

Unless they're running like 7 landfall effects, is there any reason they can't just say "I'm going to cast 3 creatures this turn" and search for three lands at once?

one would think so. but I'm not keen on giving people too much trouble about making correct/speedy plays. I want them to be able to figure stuff out and become better.

I've made suggestions after games, but these have tended to dissuade the use of Karametra rather than improve play.

oh well... some people just camt tutor well.

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 Post subject: Re: Top banned in Legacy
AgePosted: 2017-May-16 1:55 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Malekoda wrote:
Sovarius wrote:
Against a game altering spell you definitely want to see 6 cards for an answer if you have that ability.

Exactly. The problem with the top is that the optimal way to use it is to wait as long as possible, to make sure you have all the information. Which makes everyone else have to sit and wait.

A shortcut with Top i encourage is that you get it over with asap, and then if you want to re-look later, people play it as if you waited. Saves a ton of time.

I also do with fetchlands, i say "i crack this fetch, does anyone respond? okay, i'll go get Bayou and cast Oracle of Mul Daya". If no one responds to Oracle being cast and it resolves, i have all the time to fetch for my land. Even if someone does respond, i haven't increased the time my turn or search takes. If anything it's 2 seconds shorter because i was searching for the 2 seconds it took a person to say "i'll respond, cast Counterspell" and i can say "k thx shithead, pass" and keep searching.

My old group used to play Sakura-Tribe Elder and use it's Rampant Growth ability immediately on their turn and pass and say "if anyone attacks me, i block with Steve".


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 Post subject: Re: Top banned in Legacy
AgePosted: 2017-May-17 1:24 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Sovarius wrote:
Malekoda wrote:
Sovarius wrote:
Against a game altering spell you definitely want to see 6 cards for an answer if you have that ability.

Exactly. The problem with the top is that the optimal way to use it is to wait as long as possible, to make sure you have all the information. Which makes everyone else have to sit and wait.

A shortcut with Top i encourage is that you get it over with asap, and then if you want to re-look later, people play it as if you waited. Saves a ton of time.

I also do with fetchlands, i say "i crack this fetch, does anyone respond? okay, i'll go get Bayou and cast Oracle of Mul Daya". If no one responds to Oracle being cast and it resolves, i have all the time to fetch for my land. Even if someone does respond, i haven't increased the time my turn or search takes. If anything it's 2 seconds shorter because i was searching for the 2 seconds it took a person to say "i'll respond, cast Counterspell" and i can say "k thx shithead, pass" and keep searching.

My old group used to play Sakura-Tribe Elder and use it's Rampant Growth ability immediately on their turn and pass and say "if anyone attacks me, i block with Steve".

Those are exactly the things I do... but I can't force other players to be able to cognitively handle those shortcuts. With a recent move I've fallen into a group of newer[ish] players.

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