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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-07 5:20 pm 
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Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Wait, isn't proliferate useless with this card?


You can use it to get mana every turn out of it, but that makes this kind of a meh card then so I don't really see why you would want to.

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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-07 5:22 pm 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
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kirkusjones wrote:
It isn't Aether Vial. Aether Vial doesn't trigger every turn. Aether Vial does make the creature spell uncounterable, but it's only for creatures. As Foretold is for all spell types. The flexibility and utility it provides, especially in EDH, is above and beyond vial (at least in this format).


Aether Vial is amazing in this format... and Aether vial changes spells significantly. As foretold only gives you a free cast. Huge difference. Not to mention the 3 vs 1 mana... Aether Vial is still superior to this even in this format IMO. Not to say this isn't completely insane too though.

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You can use it to get mana every turn out of it, but that makes this kind of a meh card then so I don't really see why you would want to.


Remove ALL counters every upkeep. Proliferate is useless.


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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-07 6:05 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
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Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
The issue isnt that all counters are removed, as the card gets more counters that can be proliferated during combat or second main. Rather its that the effect doesnt care about the number. Had it been "for each counter removed" you could drop this into proliferate decks.

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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-08 12:11 am 
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Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Wait, isn't proliferate useless with this card?


Yeah, pretty much. But weird counter types and -1/-1 counter theme.

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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-08 9:04 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
niheloim wrote:
The issue isnt that all counters are removed, as the card gets more counters that can be proliferated during combat or second main. Rather its that the effect doesnt care about the number. Had it been "for each counter removed" you could drop this into proliferate decks.


Huh? While yes the "only caring about one" also factors, it's largely irrelevant. This only gets a counter when a counter isn't removed on your precombat main phase. It can't get them in combat or otherwise. There's also the matter that the "if no counters were removed" is going to be the largely preferred mode on the card past the first few turns of the game.

They also don't generally design cards in a way that is confusing to its intent anymore. "for each counter removed" would cause people to look for ways to get more than one counter which doesn't exist within the set or even in standard. Cards like Coalition Relic have a lot of support for untapping and can even just tap in your upkeep to add a second counter so it's intuitive on how to "abuse" it. As an enchantment with a triggered ability that can only trigger once each turn, including such a wording is very counter intuitive. As such, the remove all counters is exactly the issue on why this is useless to proliferate.


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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-08 11:15 am 
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Fair enough about Vial, you guys make some good points for sure. I guess because I've never used it or seen it used in EDH, I underestimate its power. I'm excited to live the dream with As Foretold and flash enablers like Leyline of Anticipation though.

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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-08 11:41 am 
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Epsilon wrote:
niheloim wrote:
The issue isnt that all counters are removed, as the card gets more counters that can be proliferated during combat or second main. Rather its that the effect doesnt care about the number. Had it been "for each counter removed" you could drop this into proliferate decks.


Huh? While yes the "only caring about one" also factors, it's largely irrelevant. This only gets a counter when a counter isn't removed on your precombat main phase. It can't get them in combat or otherwise. There's also the matter that the "if no counters were removed" is going to be the largely preferred mode on the card past the first few turns of the game.


While proliferate may be largely irrelevant, I do plan to use this with Power Conduit a bit. Potentially, it'll never have counters to remove on the upkeep.

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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-09 8:48 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Treamayne wrote:
Epsilon wrote:
niheloim wrote:
The issue isnt that all counters are removed, as the card gets more counters that can be proliferated during combat or second main. Rather its that the effect doesnt care about the number. Had it been "for each counter removed" you could drop this into proliferate decks.


Huh? While yes the "only caring about one" also factors, it's largely irrelevant. This only gets a counter when a counter isn't removed on your precombat main phase. It can't get them in combat or otherwise. There's also the matter that the "if no counters were removed" is going to be the largely preferred mode on the card past the first few turns of the game.


While proliferate may be largely irrelevant, I do plan to use this with Power Conduit a bit. Potentially, it'll never have counters to remove on the upkeep.
Add in some Clockspinning if you want that consistent draw.

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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-09 10:11 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Epsilon wrote:
niheloim wrote:
The issue isnt that all counters are removed, as the card gets more counters that can be proliferated during combat or second main. Rather its that the effect doesnt care about the number. Had it been "for each counter removed" you could drop this into proliferate decks.


Huh? While yes the "only caring about one" also factors, it's largely irrelevant. This only gets a counter when a counter isn't removed on your precombat main phase. It can't get them in combat or otherwise. There's also the matter that the "if no counters were removed" is going to be the largely preferred mode on the card past the first few turns of the game.
Largely irrelevant? Its the defining feature for whether cards that removal all counters work with proliferate.

And yes, the card can get them in combat or otherwise- precisely by using proliferate.


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They also don't generally design cards in a way that is confusing to its intent anymore. "for each counter removed" would cause people to look for ways to get more than one counter which doesn't exist within the set or even in standard.
Of course. This explains the wording, but not the mechanical reasons why proliferate doesn't work.

Quote:
Cards like Coalition Relic have a lot of support for untapping and can even just tap in your upkeep to add a second counter so it's intuitive on how to "abuse" it. As an enchantment with a triggered ability that can only trigger once each turn, including such a wording is very counter intuitive. As such, the remove all counters is exactly the issue on why this is useless to proliferate.
Its funny that you bring up coalition relic. If that card were written like Bounty of the Luxa- without the "for each counter" clause- proliferate would be just as useless. Your example only shows how my assessment is correct- cards that remove all counters work with proliferate when the effect counts each counter.

I would also question how much support for untapping Relic existed in standard when it was around. In block you have... what? Coral Trickster? I think this plays into your point about printing cards based on intent. Luxa looks like a card they want to function in a cyclic manner akin to the Nile river. Counters work fine for this. However, the wording "for each counter" would not have been more confusing, and I doubt it would have troubled too many players if they don't end up printing a way to add counters to it in the block. This is a card that plays well in a lot of casual formats... y'know where proliferate resides.

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At the beginning of your precombat main phase, remove all flood counters from Bounty of the Luxa. Add CGU to your mana pool for each flood counter removed. If no flood counters were removed this way, put a flood counter on Bounty of the Luxa and draw a card.

This is no more confusing than is already spoiled.

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Last edited by niheloim on 2017-Apr-10 1:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-09 3:52 pm 
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Image

Ayy

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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-09 9:58 pm 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Vizier of Mul Daya. Yikes.

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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-09 10:32 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
This allows you to spend anything to get colourless, right?

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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-09 11:10 pm 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
zimagic wrote:
This allows you to spend anything to get colourless, right?


Yes, since it says "type" instead of "color".

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Antis wrote:
I'm seriously suspicious of any card that makes Doubling Season look fair and reasonable.


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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-10 1:00 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Wow... what an upgrade for Animar over Garruk's Horde.

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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-10 3:52 am 
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niheloim wrote:
Wow... what an upgrade for Animar over Garruk's Horde.

I mean... yeah. Although I wouldn't exactly drop Horde; redundancy of such a good effect is never wasted.

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