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 Post subject: Re: Tooth and Nail Offenders
AgePosted: 2016-May-01 5:02 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
What kind of game ending creature combos don't die to Doom Blade?

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 Post subject: Re: Tooth and Nail Offenders
AgePosted: 2016-May-01 5:56 pm 

Joined: 2015-Apr-23 11:27 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
Actually, I think I've never seen DEN die to Doom Blade :)

One of our playgroups has a house ruling on Tooth & Nail, allowing it only to fetch creatures with a total of 9 mana or less. This stops most, not all, lame combo's. It's only used in relatively low supported tribal decks such as shamans or spiders.

The other playgroup is rather cutthroat, so I see all kind of T&N combo's, but it rarely resolves because, well, cutthroat group so there's always someone with counter backup. Usual parts are Kiki-Jiki an Restoration Angel, Iona and the ''can't even Eldrazi'', I don't remember the name right now, DEN and Glen Elendra Archmage, Vorinclex and something, or Vigor and something.


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 Post subject: Re: Tooth and Nail Offenders
AgePosted: 2016-May-01 6:08 pm 

Joined: 2012-Oct-09 1:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Stoke-On-Trent, England, UK
crokaycete wrote:
maiden77 wrote:
if this goes before Deadeye i will be amazed tbh.
Deadeye still dies to doom blade. T&N combos often don't.

I've been fortunate that my play group has moved away from T&N. I used to see Hoof + Avenger, Mike & Trike, and Goodstuff + EWitt (returning T&N) all pretty routinely. The best case scenario was usually that the player resolved a single spell and immediately killed the entire table. (So... not great.) Games where that didn't happen typically turned into boring recursion and tutoring loops.


If we are playing the all cards have answers game though, T & N dies to all counters ;-). I understand though

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 Post subject: Re: Tooth and Nail Offenders
AgePosted: 2016-May-01 7:21 pm 

Joined: 2013-Oct-09 7:02 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Can we have more discussions about cards that aren't green? :P

I play T&N in my Kamahl, Fist of Krosa deck. I think T&N is pretty fair in it, probably mainly because it's mono green. I only ever get cards that are good against the board or that interact with my cards, so it's almost always something different. I recently for the first time managed to do the combo of Devoted Druid, Joraga Treespeaker, Kamahl, Fist of Krosa. Both the Druid and Treespeaker were fetched with T&N.


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 Post subject: Re: Tooth and Nail Offenders
AgePosted: 2016-May-01 8:58 pm 

Joined: 2013-Jun-23 10:18 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Any two of the following list, really:

Iona, Shield of Emeria (especially versus mono-coloured opponents. Couple it with a clone or Void Winnower for maximum dickery).
Craterhoof Behemoth
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker (seriously, does this thing actually get played fairly by anybody?)
Eternal Witness (to loop T&N)
Palinchron/Great Whale/other infinite mana stuff with Deadeye Navigator
Void Winnower
Purphoros, God of the Forge (+ your preferred token maker)
Ulamog (either one) + Haste enabler.

I would shed no tears for the loss of T&N, but there are other cards I want gone first (the aforementioned Iona being one of them). I can understand, though, why people are in favour of removing a card which is basically "have an instant speed answer RIGHT NOW or die" in a lot of cases.

There are fair uses for T&N- the worst I ever personally used it for was Avacyn, Angel of Hope and Empyrial Archangel, because I like not dying. But if we didn't ban cards that had genuinely fair uses, Gifts, Protean Hulk, Painter's Servant, Panoptic Mirror and Trade Secrets would all be legal. There has to be more to the argument in favour of T&N than just "some people use it in a fun way."

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Last edited by Swmystery on 2016-May-03 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Tooth and Nail Offenders
AgePosted: 2016-May-02 2:01 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
MRHblue wrote:
What kind of game ending creature combos don't die to Doom Blade?
The most obvious examples are Purphoros + Avenger of Zendikar or Craterhoof + Avenger with some haste enabler already in place (typically Anger in a graveyard, in my experience). Late in the game Palinchron + Eldrazi Displacer can also go off in response to Doom Blade.

While I'm this minor tangent, I think Eldrazi Displacer is probably better than DEN in most of the DEN combos at this point. 2C is usually not harder than 1U for these loops to maintain, and you don't have to wait for the initial trigger to resolve, and you can go off immediately when you have 4WC available instead of 5UUU. So I think DEN is probably less bannable than ever at this point.

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 Post subject: Re: Tooth and Nail Offenders
AgePosted: 2016-May-02 3:05 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
@Maiden - T&N is one of the few recurring discussions in the ban list thread, so it isn't really a new one, just a newly revisited. The best argument I saw for it was that the "well it's a sorcery and green has a hard time tutoring them argument is bad because decks are often G/U or G/B and they tutor easily".

@MRHblue - Mike & Trike doesn't die to Doom Blade :p


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 Post subject: Re: Tooth and Nail Offenders
AgePosted: 2016-May-02 3:35 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-30 12:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Swmystery wrote:
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker (seriously, does this thing actually get played fairly by anybody?)
Yes! I play it in Feldon and Marath. Never gone infinite with it, though I did realize two nights ago that I accidentally put him in the same deck as Zealous Conscripts, so I'm going to have to cut one of them. I've never drawn the combo, didn't even know it was there until the last game I played with the deck, but eventually I will draw it if I don't cut something.

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 Post subject: Re: Tooth and Nail Offenders
AgePosted: 2016-May-02 11:36 pm 

Joined: 2012-Oct-09 1:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Stoke-On-Trent, England, UK
cryogen wrote:
@Maiden - T&N is one of the few recurring discussions in the ban list thread, so it isn't really a new one, just a newly revisited. The best argument I saw for it was that the "well it's a sorcery and green has a hard time tutoring them argument is bad because decks are often G/U or G/B and they tutor easily".

@MRHblue - Mike & Trike doesn't die to Doom Blade :p


Thanks for the additional info mate.

I feel like eventually more and more tutors will end up on this list, this being a classic 'enabler' of a combo, but to a very strong effect, is chord of calling or green sun plus any copy spell going to end up the same way? 2 card combos n all that yes but we are talking douche plays essentially here. Tutor generals? Powerful tutors that can ruin games like demonic revelation? How about big draw spells or genesis wave? Most of these have the same effect, a hand or field that can't be gotten around. Even if it might take a couple of turns, arguably that's worse than instant death.

I know nothing is actually decided by this question, but i don't like the way in which is points the format towards, over policing. And we only play casual kitchen table. Zero combos, little control, creature swinging, wrath casting, EDH. And this will hit us still, for no reason apart from people can't play nice. Pretty crappy :evil:

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 Post subject: Re: Tooth and Nail Offenders
AgePosted: 2016-May-03 12:26 am 

Joined: 2013-Jun-23 10:18 am
Age: Elder Dragon
maiden77 wrote:
I feel like eventually more and more tutors will end up on this list, this being a classic 'enabler' of a combo, but to a very strong effect, is chord of calling or green sun plus any copy spell going to end up the same way? 2 card combos n all that yes but we are talking douche plays essentially here. Tutor generals? Powerful tutors that can ruin games like demonic revelation? How about big draw spells or genesis wave? Most of these have the same effect, a hand or field that can't be gotten around. Even if it might take a couple of turns, arguably that's worse than instant death.

I know nothing is actually decided by this question, but i don't like the way in which is points the format towards, over policing. And we only play casual kitchen table. Zero combos, little control, creature swinging, wrath casting, EDH. And this will hit us still, for no reason apart from people can't play nice. Pretty crappy :evil:


You can't work out a house rule for your casual kitchen table group? Based on how you describe it that seems pretty close knit, so it shouldn't be difficult.

The first bit of your post...if anything else tutored for multiple cards and put them directly onto the battlefield by itself, I'd want them gone too, yes. Is that over-policing? Not really. Such cards should probably be banned on their own merits anyway. I'm not sure why you think the other example you gave are comparable. None of them are single cards which do anything like what T&N does.

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 Post subject: Re: Tooth and Nail Offenders
AgePosted: 2016-May-03 1:25 am 
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Really it all just boils down to Unban Chaos Orb! :mrgreen: :lol: 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Tooth and Nail Offenders
AgePosted: 2016-May-03 2:13 am 

Joined: 2012-Oct-09 1:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Stoke-On-Trent, England, UK
Swmystery wrote:
maiden77 wrote:
I feel like eventually more and more tutors will end up on this list, this being a classic 'enabler' of a combo, but to a very strong effect, is chord of calling or green sun plus any copy spell going to end up the same way? 2 card combos n all that yes but we are talking douche plays essentially here. Tutor generals? Powerful tutors that can ruin games like demonic revelation? How about big draw spells or genesis wave? Most of these have the same effect, a hand or field that can't be gotten around. Even if it might take a couple of turns, arguably that's worse than instant death.

I know nothing is actually decided by this question, but i don't like the way in which is points the format towards, over policing. And we only play casual kitchen table. Zero combos, little control, creature swinging, wrath casting, EDH. And this will hit us still, for no reason apart from people can't play nice. Pretty crappy :evil:


You can't work out a house rule for your casual kitchen table group? Based on how you describe it that seems pretty close knit, so it shouldn't be difficult.

The first bit of your post...if anything else tutored for multiple cards and put them directly onto the battlefield by itself, I'd want them gone too, yes. Is that over-policing? Not really. Such cards should probably be banned on their own merits anyway. I'm not sure why you think the other example you gave are comparable. None of them are single cards which do anything like what T&N does.


Yes for sure, at the kitchen table where we play. But I still care for the health of the format as a whole, and I believe over policing it could cause damage is all

As for the other cards, I was merely exaggerating the next issues that will arise. If you would like them banned (some of them as you mentioned) then its good for you ofc. I believe its pointing in a poor direction so I just wanted to express it. For whatever small part (read zero part haha) it may have on any decisions.

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 Post subject: Re: Tooth and Nail Offenders
AgePosted: 2016-May-03 3:55 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
maiden77 wrote:
I feel like eventually more and more tutors will end up on this list, this being a classic 'enabler' of a combo, but to a very strong effect, is chord of calling or green sun plus any copy spell going to end up the same way? 2 card combos n all that yes but we are talking douche plays essentially here. Tutor generals? Powerful tutors that can ruin games like demonic revelation? How about big draw spells or genesis wave? Most of these have the same effect, a hand or field that can't be gotten around. Even if it might take a couple of turns, arguably that's worse than instant death.


I don't know what other tutors should end up on the list. You can really only run a couple really powerful ones, and then the rest are not very good after that. I think the larger issue with tutors is in multicolor decks, where you can have Karador playing Demonic Tutor, Diabolic Intent, Vampiric Tutor, Wordly Tutor, Sylvan Tutor, Enlightened Tutor, GSZ, T&N, Chord, Summoner's Pact, Natural Order, Eladamri's Call/Altar of Bone. Then if you have the budget, Imperial Seal and Grim Tutor. Beseech the Queen and Cruel Tutor are not terrible but i am assuming in a 3 color deck like this you don't need them, and Infernal Tutor is situational but still good.
But even then, the tutors aren't ruining the game. It's still the player choosing to jam them and they don't accidentally ruin games.

You mean Diabolic Revelation and i don't think it's that good. I used to love jamming it in an old playgroup where we played really powerful cards, but not particularly fast cards. It was a meta where combo pieces cost 6 or 7 mana, and tutoring for any 3 cards was insane. But it's sort of bad. And for 8 mana, without just casting those cards for free or putting creatures into play, Revelation is very slow. You probably still have to untap, which means everyone is more prepared for your next turn when you have to cast those. If you're not playing blue, you pretty much lose any counterspell or removal war, too.

Genesis Wave is fun and can shit all over games, but only at like 8 mana maybe. Even then, not every 5cmc permanent is that hot, depending on the build, and hitting lands at that point is like a whiff.

I don't think taking a few turns to lose is worse than instant death. You might not get an instant win off a huge G Wave, and that means you can try to fly over or use a board wipe.


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 Post subject: Re: Tooth and Nail Offenders
AgePosted: 2016-May-03 5:15 am 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Danbury, CT
Just wanted to reiterate what a couple other folks already posted...

Most of the time when I see T&N played around the store, it's an immediate game ender. The targets are the same usual suspects that have already been mentioned: Purphoros + Token Guy, Hoof + Token Guy, Kiki + infinite loop piece, or some combination of Dead-eye/Palinchron/other infinite mana loop.

T&N and some of its partners (Kiki and Deadeye especially) have been taboo for our group for quite a while.

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 Post subject: Re: Tooth and Nail Offenders
AgePosted: 2016-May-03 6:02 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
My son plays Tooth and Nail in his Maelstrom Wanderer deck. He usually gets inferno titan and the new Pathbreaker Ibex to finish off whoever is left. Its not at all combo-y like the usual offenders, just a powerful finisher.

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