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 Post subject: Re: SOI leaked cards?
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-11 9:54 pm 

Joined: 2012-Oct-09 1:35 am
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Location: Stoke-On-Trent, England, UK
I think with the volume of legends being released each set means we can accept some lesser wanted ones for corner case decks and still get some great stuff each set. I am really happy with the support EDH gets from Wizards in standard now, always something shiny legend wise IMO, and gradually opening up new aspects for each colour combo too

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 Post subject: Re: SOI leaked cards?
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-11 10:12 pm 
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maiden77 wrote:
I think with the volume of legends being released each set means we can accept some lesser wanted ones for corner case decks and still get some great stuff each set. I am really happy with the support EDH gets from Wizards in standard now, always something shiny legend wise IMO, and gradually opening up new aspects for each colour combo too

Spiders aren't exactly a corner case when they've been around since Alpha.
Image


The sad thing is, knowing Wizards has these sets designed and tested well in advance of everything makes it very unlikely there's a Spider legend unless they were already planning on doing such.

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 Post subject: Re: SOI leaked cards?
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-12 12:58 am 
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Fun fact: Giant Spider is the single most "evergreen" card in the game. It has been Standard Legal from Alpha all the way up until the 2012 Core Set rotated out.

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 Post subject: Re: SOI leaked cards?
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-12 3:12 am 
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Location: New Hampshire
Regarding a dual-faced legend, is there an actual reason both sides of the card can't have the same english name and be legendary on both sides?

Awesome Werewolf Legend - 2RG
Legendary creautre - Human Werewolf
Usual flip BS
Some awesome ability
P/T

Awesome Werewolf Legend
Legendary creature - werewolf
Usual flip back BS
Some even more awesome ability
P/T

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 Post subject: Re: SOI leaked cards?
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-12 3:32 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Regarding a dual-faced legend, is there an actual reason both sides of the card can't have the same english name and be legendary on both sides?

CR 711.12 is a little muddled if you have a double faced card with the same name on both sides, but that's more a semantic thing than an obstacle to the feasibility of what you're suggesting. At a glance it seems to work just fine.

Quote:
Usual flip BS

On a related note, I didn't like the bookkeeping created by werewolf transformation triggers and I haven't missed it.

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 Post subject: Re: SOI leaked cards?
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-12 4:25 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
tarnar wrote:
CR 711.12 is a little muddled if you have a double faced card with the same name on both sides, but that's more a semantic thing than an obstacle to the feasibility of what you're suggesting.

I think they'd probably throw a sentence like the token naming one in 201.3 onto it and call it good.


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 Post subject: Re: SOI leaked cards?
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-12 5:31 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Two cards having the same name creates a problem for competitive tournament rules. For example, a player can ask a judge for the oracle text of a card, but not to help him figure out the abilities of a permanent on the battlefield.

If there are two cards name Werewolf Jim, a judge would be unable to assist a player who asks for the oracle text of Werewolf Jim and reads the front-face text instead of the (currently relevant) back face text.

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 Post subject: Re: SOI leaked cards?
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-12 5:36 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
^ I don't know these things very in depth, but couldn't the player specific if it was front face or back face he meant? Couldn't the judge read both oracle texts?


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 Post subject: Re: SOI leaked cards?
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-12 5:40 am 

Joined: 2012-Oct-09 1:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Stoke-On-Trent, England, UK
Segrus wrote:
maiden77 wrote:
I think with the volume of legends being released each set means we can accept some lesser wanted ones for corner case decks and still get some great stuff each set. I am really happy with the support EDH gets from Wizards in standard now, always something shiny legend wise IMO, and gradually opening up new aspects for each colour combo too

Spiders aren't exactly a corner case when they've been around since Alpha.
Image


The sad thing is, knowing Wizards has these sets designed and tested well in advance of everything makes it very unlikely there's a Spider legend unless they were already planning on doing such.


I meant corner case for a request of a Spider Legend for a spider deck. You and your better half are the only people i know of who want one :-P. I am not against a spider legend of course. I am happy to see more and more diverse cards and tribes get support. It means my cube gets more random as do the decks i face on the table. Spiders are in almost every set, so its not a bad call to print one, but i feel a Conspiracy/Commander/Planechase set would be the better place to see a spider legend in this instance. I feel like zombies, sphinx, demon, werewolf, angel, human and vampire are as many tribes as we will or can see in return to Innistrad. Amongst the smaller ones like dragon (bound to be one, can't possibly be as gorgeous or awesome as moonveil dragon IMO), spirit, devil, possibly ooze

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 Post subject: Re: SOI leaked cards?
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-12 6:13 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Sovarius wrote:
^ I don't know these things very in depth, but couldn't the player specific if it was front face or back face he meant? Couldn't the judge read both oracle texts?

What he said.

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 Post subject: Re: SOI leaked cards?
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-12 6:21 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
crokaycete wrote:
Two cards having the same name creates a problem for competitive tournament rules. For example, a player can ask a judge for the oracle text of a card, but not to help him figure out the abilities of a permanent on the battlefield.

If there are two cards name Werewolf Jim, a judge would be unable to assist a player who asks for the oracle text of Werewolf Jim and reads the front-face text instead of the (currently relevant) back face text.

That takes a very specific type of judge with whom I have strong philosophical disagreements. Even for the rules stickler judge, there is nothing that prevents a judge in that situation from clarifying. "Day side, night side, or both?" is reasonable for this inherently ambiguous request.


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 Post subject: Re: SOI leaked cards?
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-12 7:11 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Knowing what the player means to ask when asked a question doesn't give you the freedom to answer what they meant if they actually asked you something different.

The judge example is sort of the tip-of-the-iceberg illustration though. The point is that anything that references a "card name" now has the capability to reference objects with two completely distinct sets of copiable characteristics. You don't actually want that.

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 Post subject: Re: SOI leaked cards?
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-12 9:17 am 
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Location: Midgard
maiden77 wrote:
I meant corner case for a request of a Spider Legend for a spider deck. You and your better half are the only people i know of who want one :-P. I am not against a spider legend of course. I am happy to see more and more diverse cards and tribes get support. It means my cube gets more random as do the decks i face on the table. Spiders are in almost every set, so its not a bad call to print one, but i feel a Conspiracy/Commander/Planechase set would be the better place to see a spider legend in this instance. I feel like zombies, sphinx, demon, werewolf, angel, human and vampire are as many tribes as we will or can see in return to Innistrad. Amongst the smaller ones like dragon (bound to be one, can't possibly be as gorgeous or awesome as moonveil dragon IMO), spirit, devil, possibly ooze

There were no Sphinxes in the original Innistrad, so there's no reason to suspect there'd be one in a return.

A good comparison would be Moldgraf Monstrosity and Vorapede. Instead of something like those in the return, do a legendary Spider. We have enough legendary/mythic rare/rare Insects, and we don't need any extras.

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 Post subject: Re: SOI leaked cards?
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-12 9:18 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
crokaycete wrote:
The point is that anything that references a "card name" now has the capability to reference objects with two completely distinct sets of copiable characteristics. You don't actually want that.

I'm not aware of any current cases that care about the characteristics of a card that has been named while not in a visible zone.

I agree that you / we probably don't want to permanently close the door to effects that operate in such a way, but I can't actually think of any current cases that this matters for today.

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 Post subject: Re: SOI leaked cards?
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-12 11:56 am 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
tarnar wrote:
crokaycete wrote:
The point is that anything that references a "card name" now has the capability to reference objects with two completely distinct sets of copiable characteristics. You don't actually want that.

I'm not aware of any current cases that care about the characteristics of a card that has been named while not in a visible zone.

I agree that you / we probably don't want to permanently close the door to effects that operate in such a way, but I can't actually think of any current cases that this matters for today.


There are plenty of things already that care about those names being different.

Let's use Ravager of the Fells as our notional example. For this example, both sides have the same name. Are you happy with Eradicate on the night side pulling all of your day sides out of the deck and GY? Or Exclusion Ritual effectively Imprinting both sides? Voidstone Gargoyle effectively blocking abilities from both sides?

Is it common? No. Does it matter? Yes.

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